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Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by codingdave on Thursday November 30, 2017 @05:40PM (#15820304)
Excel is old-school Business Intelligence. We don't need to make a better spreadsheet, we need to make a better toolkit for data-driven decisions. There is very little reason that all users need to engage with their data in a grid of cells. When BI tools are as usable and flexible as Excel, that is when Excel will dwindle.
Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by ng12 on Thursday November 30, 2017 @05:56PM (#15820427)
> we need to make a better toolkit for data-driven decisions

Why? Excel is ubiquitous, powerful, and accessible. It only really falls apart for huge data sets -- at which point you build a cluster and feed the output back into Excel anyway.

I'll never understand why software engineers feel like everybody else is a caveman banging rocks together. Excel replacements are a hard sell because, by and large, they're not needed.

Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by twic on Thursday November 30, 2017 @06:11PM (#15820515)
Excel sheets aren't very maintainable. You get a big grid, plus named ranges. There aren't good tools for generalisation or abstraction, so big sheets have all the usual problems of bad software: hard to understand, hard to change, full of inconsistencies, etc. There are also no good options for source control, modular reuse, etc.

I work on a desk which has a lot of vital calculations in Excel spreadsheets. They work, and we make money, but it takes a lot of human effort (expensive trader effort!) to keep them working properly. If we want to scale up - more people, more products, etc - we need to move more and more of those calculations into software.

Improvements to or replacements for the spreadsheet as tools for non-programmers would certainly be helpful. But better tools and techniques for programmers to port functionality from spreadsheets to 'real' software would also be helpful.

Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by roenxi on Thursday November 30, 2017 @08:31PM (#15821255)
Excel spreadsheets aren't maintainable, but in context there are some subtleties. If the process is upgraded to a full-blown piece of 'real' software, now you need a full-blown software dev to maintain it. A better result from more resources isn't a clean improvement, it is just a change.

Straddling the line between 'technically best outcome' and 'cheapest workable outcome' is what businesses strive to do. In most mature businesses change should be approached extremely cautiously; everybody loves changing things and the costs are frequently big.

Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by vorotato on Friday December 01, 2017 @08:51AM (#15823770)
If your risk is less than it costs to build the software then that's totally acceptable, but what is unacceptable is billion dollar businesses using spreadsheets to manage critical business operations.
Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by vorotato on Friday December 01, 2017 @08:48AM (#15823750)
Probably because studies show that people who use excel to manage finance end up coming up with different numbers. JP Morgan lost 6 billion because of excel, and these are preventable problems. It's because you aren't codifying your process, you're just memorizing it and trusting that your memory won't change. Trusting that you won't miss a step. The moment you start doing serious calculations on your data you would be better writing some form of software which can actually handle the amount of complexity that you have in your job. Excel is opaque, hard to manage, easy to diverge. The agency I'm at have made a tremendous reduction in errors by migrating away from excel. Sure it's more work nailing down every process, but they are actually nailed down and you can see them and evaluate whether they are actually correct. You won't have multiple competing standards within a business because we can share our processes. If you think excel is enough you're either doing very simple or low risk job, or much more likely you are floating a lot of totally unnecessary and expensive risk. In finance CENTS matter.
Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by noitsnot on Thursday November 30, 2017 @09:13PM (#15821415)
Two opposite ends of the spectrum. The engineer who has to constantly keep up on the latest technology, then there are people who use excel, which is a program from the beginning of time/Windows.
Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by d--b on Thursday November 30, 2017 @06:39PM (#15820683)
I'm not saying we should make a better grid of cells, I'm saying we should make a better application container that non-dev people can use.

The big grid of cells is the weakest part of Excel by far!

Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by agar on Thursday November 30, 2017 @06:57PM (#15820779)
People have tried to improve on that big grid of cells since VisiCalc in 1979. Considering it's the weakest part, it has been remarkably difficult to find something better.

As someone that spent years being buried in complex spreadsheets for hours a day (and supported and trained others who spent literally 12 hours a day building models), I can't think of a better combination of functionality, capability, and usability than that big grid of cells.

Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by sanityUnbounded on Thursday November 30, 2017 @09:49PM (#15821542)
And it makes sense why it works so well. On a 2D screen, seeing data in linear rows and columns is the best option because it follows the same format we have been taught verbatim since birth. The first type of data processing a person does is learn to read. Left to right, each letter (column) represents a different sound (value), these letters build a picture, and the more of them there are the more information the story contains (debatable). Then we learn to build our own information by writing.

Then we move on to math, and we still do it with paper, almost as an extension of writing. When doing calculations in class it is natural to keep calculations and values in some type of invisible grid pattern that makes sense to the student. Then we get to the computer, and that format still follows.

Except that the first information processing a person does isn't reading at all. It's learning sounds and words, and we do that by listening and watching others do it. And the first thing we create isn't words on a page, it's likely something physical, in the form of building blocks or some other toy. This type of learning is great, but it can't be replicated well in a school system because it is expensive and doesn't scale well to the real world. If you're going to engineer and design a bridge, you're not going to start by making a bridge. So we're taught to make lines on paper that represent a bridge.

This is where (I hope) AR/VR becomes disruptive. An infinite amount of objects that can represent any piece of data on any scale in non space.

Think about how successful minecraft is. When I first played it made me realize how much creativity I had lost to pen and paper through no fault of my own. I was building logic gates without even realizing what formal logic was until I came to college.

Now make it engulf me, make it blank, and give me a wand and an in game terminal.

Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by intended on Friday December 01, 2017 @02:16AM (#15822474)
I always pour water on the AR VR user input ideas - The calorific need is too high - and thinking in 3D results in an unnecessary cognitive load.

Since this thread probably has more Finance users than usual - most people have seen a bloomberg terminal. Its ugly, and filled with arcane short cuts.

Its extremely extremely good at getting its job done, and keyboard short cuts and commands are the fastest system once you gain expertise.

Keyboard short cuts and memorized lists of invocations will regularly be the fastest way of activating commands on a system for experts. Especially once it becomes muscle memmory.

For most abstract symbol manipulation, most jobs can get away with a stack of 2D pages.

If you are working in 3D, then you are doing a pretty unique set of modifications, and the average case will not apply to you.

Which is to say that AR VR will be only for a very niche set of uses.

Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by bonesss on Friday December 01, 2017 @07:19AM (#15823387)
To bolster you point even further: take something like air-traffic control.

Operators are so in tuned with the incoming data that they intuitively make 3D maps in their head, while requiring 2D data for quick observation, comprehension, and real-time monitoring.

Working in a 3D space makes sense for blocking out movies, exploring physical architectures, or certain kinds of research. For everything else there universe has given us an amazing parallel processor connected to eyes that work really nicely on tabular data.

Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by sanityUnbounded on Friday December 01, 2017 @10:09AM (#15824190)
I think you are right. But while I think AR/VR is good for the types of research you mentioned at first glance, I have not seen any comprehensive prototype for working with elementary mathematics in 3D space taught in schools. So I hope you are wrong, and there is room for a hands on/physical type of math.

If something comes out that can help students who struggle with math visualize those concepts in a more (to them) natural way I will be thrilled. To me these concepts were always very visual, and allowed me to pick up concepts in class by thinking that way. I only have experience in the U.S. education system, and in my experience it felt that my teachers always taught in a way that emphasized problem memorization and notation over actually understanding, mentally, the abstract concepts and problem solving. This seems like a barrier for the average student, and leaves a lot of people feeling left behind or "not smart" even though it is likely a fault in the way they are taught.

If something comes out that will allow those mental barriers to be broken, I will consider it a win.

Re:Finance Pros Say You’ll Have to Pry Excel Out of Their Co... by cm2187 on Thursday November 30, 2017 @06:34PM (#15820651)
Data analysis is only one of many use cases for Excel.