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Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by Chirael on Monday November 27, 2017 @03:52PM (#15791229)
I think the idea of accredited investors is that those investments are very risky, and it limits them to people who can "afford" the risk. An accredited investor may be able to bear the brunt of 9 investments being a total loss, to get to the 10th that hits it out of the park, while a non-accredited investor may have her/his life savings (or a substantial enough part of it) wiped out on the first 1 or 2 deals. I'm not saying it's perfect - there's certainly an element of "the rich get/stay richer" too - but just that there's some kind of rationale for the rules (as I understand it anyway).
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by summer_steven on Monday November 27, 2017 @05:51PM (#15792409)
The point of accredited investing is to lock the middle class out of the market.

If the law was really about "protecting people", then gambling and the lottery would also be illegal.

Also, why can't I sign a paper saying I accept the risk of investing? Why can't I become an accredited investor by passing a class? I can pass a series of classes to become an EMT and be trusted with peoples lives, but no classes are sufficient to educate me about investing in startups.

When you look at how the accredited investor laws are structured, its clearly meant lock the middle class out of the market

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by gowld on Monday November 27, 2017 @08:05PM (#15793368)
> Also, why can't I sign a paper saying I accept the risk of investing?

You can! All you have to do is lie on your affadavit of accredition, granting you the two things you want: (1) investment in the venture, to (2) no ability to file criminal charges on the venture management if you get fleeced. You do want both of those, right?

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by vel0city on Monday November 27, 2017 @07:05PM (#15793016)
FWIW, in most of the US gambling is illegal and lotteries are often regulated by the State.
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by maxerickson on Monday November 27, 2017 @07:16PM (#15793088)
There's loads of casinos though:

https://www.worldcasinodirectory.com/united-states/map

And aren't states mostly the beneficiaries of lotteries? Here the revenue is supposed to go to schools or something.

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by vel0city on Thursday November 30, 2017 @08:13PM (#15821181)
That source is pretty questionable. I'm pretty familiar with Texas' gambling laws so I was surprised to see so many "casinos" in Texas. Upon further review, many of those points are improperly placed, with actual casinos being out of state but simply matching a partial address. I'd take that map with a massive grain of salt, as chances are a high percentage of points are probably wrong. Of the three casinos near DFW, two are out of state with the third being a horse racing track. The one outside Austin really exists in Indiana. It also shows cruise ships, which usually don't begin gambling until they're well offshore.

I'm not going to deny there are many casinos (there are plenty) but the OP's statement of "gambling and the lottery would also be illegal" seems to miss that in probably the vast majority of the US, gambling and operating lotteries is illegal. For example, Texas recently had to have a constitutional amendment to allow sports teams to hold charitable raffles.

https://ballotpedia.org/Texas_Proposition_5,_Definition_of_P...

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by ghaff on Monday November 27, 2017 @04:01PM (#15791333)
That and a lot of people really aren't qualified to judge the risk and fall victim to "You can't lose!" scams. Being rich is no guarantee of financial sophistication of course but there's some correlation. And, as you say, they're less likely to be wiped out even if they lose their investment.

I agree it's not a perfect system and people who want to can find other ways to throw away their money. But we're probably not guilty of over-regulating financial markets in general.

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by smokeyj on Monday November 27, 2017 @05:37PM (#15792279)
> I agree it's not a perfect system

I think it's a great system. But I also hate poor people and don't want them to have the same opportunities I have. Let them play the lottery instead right?

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by ghaff on Monday November 27, 2017 @05:57PM (#15792468)
For me personally, state lotteries work great. They're a very regressive tax. I also don't like them much and appreciate that, at least in my state, advertising and promotion was largely phased out.

[ADDED: In case anyone missed the sarcasm I'm not a huge fan of state lotteries because they target the people who can least afford them. That said, I realize many buyers would go the less regulated route if they didn't exist.]

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by wtfrmyinitials on Monday November 27, 2017 @04:20PM (#15791524)
I don't need the government to protect me from myself. Adults should be able to make their own decisions
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by exogen on Monday November 27, 2017 @04:39PM (#15791700)
Predatory companies love people like you. Now people have lost their homes and grandparents are being swindled out of their retirements – good thing the government allowed companies to do whatever they want! Corporations are awesome! It was pretty cool when the banks told people they were qualified for loans, knowing they shouldn't be, then used that to their advantage to steal those people's houses. Fuck the government, am I right???
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by conanbatt on Monday November 27, 2017 @04:46PM (#15791772)
Predatory investors love people like you. They get higher returns and much better negotiation power because some people advocate to take down their competition!
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by exogen on Monday November 27, 2017 @04:49PM (#15791804)
Who's losing their life savings or ending up in financial ruin in this scenario? Also I've never even heard of a "predatory investor", I'm pretty sure you just made that up.
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by conanbatt on Monday November 27, 2017 @05:37PM (#15792280)
If you are an investor, accreditation rules eliminate 95+% of the population as competition for your investment. That means you will get higher returns and better negotiation terms. Even founders cant invest in their own bethren! Think about that. YC startup founders could get together, talk to each other, and NOT be able to invest in each other.

Neither could employees that have access to internal financials. You could believe your company is doing great, but you cannot invest. You dont have the chance to compete for the resource with the investors that can.

This also means less money goes into investment.

Result:

- Qualified investors get higher returns - Employees get lower wages because there is less capital invested - Founders get less money - Fewer startups are created

In the name of protecting compulsive gamblers?

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by gamblor956 on Monday November 27, 2017 @07:34PM (#15793193)
If you are an investor, accreditation rules eliminate 95+% of the population as competition for your investment. That means you will get higher returns and better negotiation terms.

Actually, for non-startups (i.e., 99% of new businesses), loans from banks, family, and friends, are the primary form of investment. This method of investing does not require the investor to be accredited.

Neither could employees that have access to internal financials.

Investors are also not entitled to internal financials. They might have a right to financial statement, but those are very different things.

Employees get lower wages because there is less capital invested

If the increased capital is coming from employees, then this is just a circular transaction: the money goes from the employee, to the company, back to the employee again = no net financial difference.

Founders get less money In the real world, founders borrow money, which forces them to be calculating and spendthrift with their cash.

Fewer startups are created

Oh no! Juicero would never have existed!...Wait, that's a good thing, and the very existence of Juicero and other wasteful startups suggests that the problem is too much capital, not too little.

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by conanbatt on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @12:37AM (#15794705)
> Actually, for non-startups (i.e., 99% of new businesses), loans from banks, family, and friends, are the primary form of investment. This method of investing does not require the investor to be accredited.

Precisely because its illegal to do it otherwise..you are making my case for me with this statement.

> If the increased capital is coming from employees, then this is just a circular transaction: the money goes from the employee, to the company, back to the employee again = no net financial difference.

It could be divested from other less profitable capital investments like index funds, real estate or straight down cash. That lower competition of capital for startups means less startups and thus lower wages.

> Oh no! Juicero would never have existed!...Wait, that's a good thing, and the very existence of Juicero and other wasteful startups suggests that the problem is too much capital, not too little.

Thats your opinion, but you are making a comment on a site run by an institution whose primary goal is to make more startups.

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by exogen on Monday November 27, 2017 @05:42PM (#15792319)
Yes, that all sounds fine. Protect average people, not startups trying to get rich. Yes. Yes. Yes. Life does not revolve around startups. Yes.

Also, the people applying for home loans weren't compulsive gamblers. The banks literally told them they were qualified.

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by conanbatt on Monday November 27, 2017 @06:35PM (#15792795)
You are protecting investors from competition. Harming startups, harming founders, employees and consumers.
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by exogen on Monday November 27, 2017 @06:44PM (#15792849)
That doesn't sound like a very big deal. Average people are suffering actual material harm at the hands of predatory companies and you're worried about startup founders?! "The poor startup founders, they have slightly less of a chance to make even more money!!!" – said no one, ever. This is the saddest argument for removing financial protections I've ever heard. Again, life does not revolve around startups.
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by conanbatt on Monday November 27, 2017 @06:58PM (#15792954)
You have more sympathy for investors than founders and employees?

Put it up to a vote and the vast majority will do away with these restrictions. The people don't want it. Some people want it, and some people benefit from it. As its usual in economics, those groups are not the same.

"Financial protections" => the government collects a tax to impose a restriction on you, to benefit the richest class.

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by banderman on Monday November 27, 2017 @04:42PM (#15791733)
The track record of humanity's decision making indicates that your statement is not accurate for a significant portion of the population.
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by BearGoesChirp on Monday November 27, 2017 @05:17PM (#15792108)
Where do we draw the limit at limiting adults for their own good?
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by mindcrime on Monday November 27, 2017 @05:49PM (#15792391)
Initiation of force or fraud.
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by BearGoesChirp on Monday November 27, 2017 @06:00PM (#15792493)
How does the above scenario of limiting who can invest fall under these?
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by mindcrime on Monday November 27, 2017 @07:32PM (#15793176)
It doesn't. :-)
Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by eternalban on Monday November 27, 2017 @05:12PM (#15792057)
Curious:

Does that also apply to "democratic" processes?

Should only "accredited citizens" have the right to vote?

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by fooker on Tuesday November 28, 2017 @04:20AM (#15795631)
Is that truly a bad idea?

Having to pass a test to demonstrate you understand the policy choices and how they affect you could be a good idea if done impartially.

Re:Initial Coin Offerings Horrify a Former S.E.C. Regulator by eternalban on Wednesday November 29, 2017 @09:31AM (#15807011)
Well, yes, it does have some merit but "done impartially" is the hair in the ointment, isn't it.

But to the point, categorical denial of access to a participatory space -- here based on your bank balance -- is akin to denying voting rights based on gender or color.