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Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by shmerl on Monday November 20, 2017 @11:55PM (#15745633)
What's going now with Net neutrality is a symptom of a bigger problem. We need to repeal Citizens United[1] and make the government less corrupted to prevent cases like this.

But in narrower scope, the best way is to support the inevitable court case against FCC that will follow their expected decision. That will prompt politicians who are backed by ISP monopolists to propose a "solution", i.e. legislation that will supposedly address Net neutrality.

That's where the real fight will begin. They'll try to push a fake law that won't protect anything but will make it even harder to ever change things for the better. The public will have to put a lot of pressure on their representatives to voice interest in a proper law.

Another part of the solution would be pushing for more municipal networks and for ending of the obnoxious monopolistic grip of Comcast and Co. That also requires repealing a lot of anti-competitive state laws (so again, put pressure on your representatives if you live in one). Real (not fake) competition will naturally prevent many of the issues that Net neutrality tries to address.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC

Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by tzs on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @06:18AM (#15747155)
> What's going now with Net neutrality is a symptom of a bigger problem. We need to repeal Citizens United[1] and make the government less corrupted to prevent cases like this.

Your error is in assuming that this is due to corruption, rather than due to Republicans' philosophical belief that minimal regulation and free markets are better [1]. The Republican position on net neutrality is consistent with, and entirely predictable from, their positions on internet and telecommunications regulations going back long before Citizens United.

> But in narrower scope, the best way is to support the inevitable court case against FCC that will follow their expected decision.

Will there actually be a serious court case? There were court cases when the FCC made net neutrality rules, in both 2010 and 2015, but making a rule requires exercising authority, and so the question of whether or not they exceeded their authority can arise, and be litigated.

In the case of repealing one of their prior rules, instead of making a rule, is there really a plausible litigable issue? Since there is nothing that requires them to have a net neutrality regulation, it is hard to see how they could be exceeding their authority by dropping their net neutrality rules.

As long as they don't make a procedural mistake, it is hard to see what grounds they can be challenged on.

[1] Yes, I know that ISP markets are usually not competitive, which is one of the requirements for a free market to work well, but that's not relevant since I'm not saying that Republicans are right that minimal regulation and markets will protect the internet. I'm just saying that this is what they believe.

Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by michaelt on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @06:39AM (#15747207)

  You error is in assuming that this is due to corruption,
  rather than due to Republicans' philosophical belief that
  minimal regulation and free markets are better [1].
I think people find this hard to believe, as it requires one of two things; either (a) they are aware of the impacts of giving monopolies expanded powers to extract economic rent without productive action, but they believe repealing net neutrality will be good for the country; or (b) they have somehow got elected to public office without knowledge of that impact, despite the fact I've seen it taught to first-year undergraduates in economics, politics and history courses; and they will have received briefs and letters informing them about it.
Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by betterunix2 on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @08:00AM (#15747569)
"Yes, I know that ISP markets are usually not competitive, which is one of the requirements for a free market to work well,"

In my comment on this proceeding I made the point that, in fact, a competitive market would achieve the desired outcome and that we know this to be the case because it worked with DSL circa 2000. The key at that time was that phone companies were required to allow competing services to use their infrastructure (line sharing rules), so in major cities there were dozens of competing DSL services. I could actually support Pai's proposal if it included reinstating line sharing rules, but clearly he never stopped working for Verizon...

Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by shmerl on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @10:38AM (#15748571)
>philosophical belief that minimal regulation and free markets are better [1]. The Republican position on net neutrality is consistent with, and entirely predictable from, their positions on internet and telecommunications regulations going back long before Citizens United.

As you point out yourself, this doesn't make any sense if it achieves the opposite goal i.e. less market freedom because of monopolization. Let's assume they aren't that stupid as not to understand all that. Then corruption is the most likely reason for supporting monopolies. And I'm not sure if the other alternative (stupid politicians) is less damaging.

> Will there actually be a serious court case?

There will be. The case will argue that FCC ignored massive feedback about real issues. That's why it's important to actually submit public comments.

> In the case of repealing one of their prior rules, instead of making a rule, is there really a plausible litigable issue?

Yes, the issue would be that they repealed the rule that was solving real problems. I.e. that itself started causing same problems again.

Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by ytpete on Saturday November 25, 2017 @02:59AM (#15774957)
> Will there actually be a serious court case? ... In the case of repealing one of their prior rules, instead of making a rule, is there really a plausible litigable issue?

Yes - just like creating a regulation, repealing an existing regulation has to be based on a logical conclusion from factually demonstrable conditions. I found article https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/22/opinion/courts-net-neutra... to be a good overview of this situation.

Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by rhizome on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @01:39AM (#15746124)
Citizen's United was a court decision, it can't be repealed. It can be eliminated with legislation, though.
Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by icebraining on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @01:59AM (#15746200)
Since the restriction is based on the First Amendment, isn't it pretty much untouchable by legislation?
Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by spiraldancing on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @08:39AM (#15747749)
Not (exactly) true. There are many good ideas being floated that would allow the ruling to stand, while eliminating the negative consequences. Eghttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_Equality_Act_of_2017
Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by DubiousPusher on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @02:07AM (#15746235)
Correct. It would require a Constitutional Amendment. Or it would require a reverse decision by the Supreme Court in a similar case. The later is unlikely to happen for at least another 6 or more years.
Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by shmerl on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @01:43AM (#15746137)
Yeah, that's what I meant.
[dead]
Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by sealjam on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @02:01AM (#15746213)
I truly don't understand the content of that video, perhaps I'm ignorant of the way the US system works.

I see the donation/lobbying system as something wealthy individuals/groups can use to amplify their voices in political discussion. Equating limiting the amplification factor with censorship seems like a real stretch.

If policy makers are incentivised to make policy which benefits certain groups for reasons other than what best serves their constituents (i.e. to secure party donations) that to me is the essence of corruption.

Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by Delmania on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @05:58AM (#15747082)
Anonymous account, 2 weeks old, no significant activity. I'm going to call this either a bot or a Russian account. Even HN is not immune to them.
Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by shmerl on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @01:34AM (#15746105)
If "more freedom" == "those who have more money are buying politicians", it doesn't sound like more freedom at all, no?

See how well it works in the context of monopolistic ISPs which basically pay off state legislatures to write laws that ban competition. Who in their right mind would write such awful laws? Only totally clueless or corrupted puppets.

Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by nindalf on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @06:03AM (#15747099)
> In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread. - Anatole France

Citizens United allows citizens both rich and poor the freedom to buy politicians.

Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by hood_syntax on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @09:16AM (#15747936)
Hah, I'm not a bleeding heart or anything but that quote is both hilarious and (sadly) accurate.
Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by Delmania on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @05:57AM (#15747077)
Sadly, neither Right Wing Watch nor Media Bias has an entry for PragerU, although the former does have some interesting entries for its founders. Regardless, Wikipedia helps here:

> Prager University (often stylized as PragerU) is a 501(c)3 non-profit conservative digital media organization.

I'm all for good ideas, but given what the word conservative has come to mean in the context of American politics, I am going to call BS on this one and not bother wasting my time watching some right wing "intellectual" spin lies in the form of "common-sense".

Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by anon11082016 on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @09:30PM (#15753724)
Ignorance is bliss
Re:Ask HN: How can we stop the plan to end net neutrality? by rhizome on Tuesday November 21, 2017 @01:38AM (#15746120)
Who is "we" in that construction?