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Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by amorphid on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @01:17PM (#15706183)
I reckon we'll master terraforming worlds here in our solar system by the time practical (or impractical) interstellar travel becomes a thing. We can get to Mars, Venus, Titan, etc. Will it ever be possible to get to another star system in a useful amount of time? Terraforming Venus would be sweet; as soon as you do it, I'll come visit!
Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by stcredzero on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @01:28PM (#15706315)
Venus is pretty sweet as it is. Go high enough in the atmosphere, and you have about Earth atmospheric pressure and room temperatures. That altitude in the Venus atmosphere is effectively an Earth biosphere sized almost-Earthlike living space.

One convenient circumstance: A breathable Earthlike atmosphere will float at that altitude, so it would be easy to live in floating balloon habitats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5KV3rzuag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI-old7YI4I

Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by amorphid on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @03:35PM (#15707490)
I can see the appeal of doing because it's cool. That's the primary reason I'd consider going into space. I'm not sure roughing it in a balloon would be the my idea of a good time once the novelty wore off. I wonder if there'd be some tangible benefit to colonizing Venus for adventurous entrepreneurial types... "There's gold in and/or on them thar clouds!" There's nothing like bajillions in potential profits to get people excited about moving to the a frontier. Actually...

With floating cities, the idea of a space elevator isn't that crazy. What could we do with space elevators on Venus?

Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by stcredzero on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @04:11PM (#15707844)
I'm not sure roughing it in a balloon would be the my idea of a good time once the novelty wore off.

What if the small balloons were the size of a Las Vegas resort, and the average ones where something like Manhattan?

I wonder if there'd be some tangible benefit to colonizing Venus for adventurous entrepreneurial types... "There's gold in and/or on them thar clouds!"

The society that might arise in an entirely fluid, borderless geography might have a certain attraction. Venus might wind up being the next Las Vegas, writ large in the 21st century.

With floating cities, the idea of a space elevator isn't that crazy. What could we do with space elevators on Venus?

You could have ultra-high altitude balloons that can act as staging centers for rotorvators. Those would be way cheaper than space elevators to manufacture.

Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday November 16, 2017 @03:47AM (#15711141)
There is zero chance of building viable space elevators or floating cities around Venus without magical 100% scifi technology.

The lower atmosphere of Venus is denser than the surface of Earth’s ocean, but with extremely violent currents. The upper atmosphere - at the “inhabitable” level - has similar but much less dense winds, with the added henefit of a charmingly toxic and aggressive haze of sulphuric acid.

It might just about be possible to build a floating research station, at vast effort and expense, but floating cities are not going to happen without some near-magical breakthroughs in materials science and engineering.

And without access to the surface, there isn’t much to do above Venus anyway.

Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by stcredzero on Thursday November 16, 2017 @04:04PM (#15716600)
floating cities are not going to happen without some near-magical breakthroughs in materials science and engineering.

The acid clouds aren't that bad. People have even worked out how to manufacture PTFE out of the Venusian atmosphere, so there's your acid proofing right there. We already know how to build lighter than air craft.

And without access to the surface, there isn’t much to do above Venus anyway.

Access to the surface is perfectly doable using teleoperated robots. You can lower them onto the surface with a store of a phase-change substance for cooling. Dry ice might be suitable for that. When they run out, you haul them back up.

There's wasn't that much to do in the desert where Las Vegas is located, either.

Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by dTal on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @05:15PM (#15708366)
It seems a good deal less convenient when you factor in the clouds of concentrated sulfuric acid. Any habitat is going to have to be just as hermetically sealed from the outside world as if you were on Mars, with the additional caveat that everything be acid-proof (including suits). At least Martian atmosphere won't melt your face off if it ever gets inside!
Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by logfromblammo on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @04:02PM (#15707747)
Your habitat won't float as well once I transport some asteroid-mined calcium and magnesium to Jupiter, turn it all into hydrides, package it with transition-metallic catalysts (Co, Ni, Fe, Ru), and shoot it into Venus.

  MgH2 -> Mg + H2 (thermolysis @ 287 degC)
  CO2 + H2 --Fe-> CO + H2O (water-gas shift)
  CO + H2 --Fe-> C + H2O (Bosch)
  CO2 + 4 H2 --Ni-> CH4 + 2 H2O (Sabatier)
  2n+1 H2 + n CO --metal--> CnH(2n+2) + n H2O (Fischer-Tropsch)
  2 Mg + CO2 -> 2 MgO + C 
  CaH2 + 2 H2O -> Ca(OH)2 + 2 H2
  Ca(OH)2 + CO2 -> CaCO3 + H2O
Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by stcredzero on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @04:13PM (#15707866)
We might have to switch to double-hulls, with the outer section filled with hydrogen. That would be concerning in an atmosphere with appreciable free oxygen, but I suppose you have a plan for that.
Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by logfromblammo on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @05:34PM (#15708556)
The chemical intervention is only sufficient to get the excess of CO2 out of the atmosphere, which would get the surface pressure down to maybe 3 bar of mostly N2. From there, we'd still have to cool the atmosphere down far enough to support thermophilic autotrophic microbes in the new surface lakes. They would produce oxygen, but slowly, so there wouldn't be any appreciable free oxygen available for a long time.

The primary concern would be that Earth-gas would not be a good enough lifting gas in the CO2-depleted Venus atmosphere to keep the floating habitat at a cool enough altitude. Hydrogen-filled chambers would certainly work for that, but you would have to bring that hydrogen with you to Venus. By the time atmospheric oxygen becomes a risk, you would just land the dirigible and burn the hydrogen in a controlled fashion.

Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by stcredzero on Thursday November 16, 2017 @04:06PM (#15716615)
but you would have to bring that hydrogen with you to Venus

Why not extract the hydrogen out of the clouds of acid?

Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by logfromblammo on Thursday November 16, 2017 @04:57PM (#15717057)
Because that would involve bringing along a reactive metal, bringing one H2 molecule with you is less mass than any of the metal atoms that would react with H2SO4 to give you the same amount of hydrogen. But perhaps more difficult to handle as a gas.

You could bring along MgH2, then once you hit the atmosphere, you can thermally decompose it into Mg and H2, then react the Mg with sulfuric acid to get MgSO4 and another H2.

Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by Simon_says on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @03:29PM (#15707443)
If you go to all the trouble to get out of one gravity well, what's the point of anchoring yourself?
Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by stcredzero on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @04:05PM (#15707778)
Escaping radiation? Scenery? Proximity to lots of other people? There's a good chance that the barrier of a gravity well is going to go the way of the barrier of mountainous terrain.

Also, exchanging the fixed geography of land for the fluid geography of fluid might result in changes to the underlying nature of society. In hunter gatherer days, dissenters could simply walk to a different part of the environment. Farmer's fields and defensive walls anchored people to particular pieces of land. If everyone lived in mobile floating habitats, everyone would be free to move. This is quite likely to change the nature of government.

You also get this in a Dyson Swarm, but there's a matter of scale. A minimum viable space colony is likely to be larger and more expensive than a minimum viable floating Venusian compound.

Re:Closest Temperate World Orbiting Quiet Star Discovered by macintux on Wednesday November 15, 2017 @03:33PM (#15707478)
Some of us are fond of the conveniences of a gravity well.