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Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by niftich on Monday November 13, 2017 @02:32AM (#15684873)
I took my first eight years of math in Hungary; admittedly, some time ago. Though I'm not sure if things have changed since then, or were different at higher levels, the way the article describes it very much reflected my experience. Starting out, there was a balanced mix of rote learning the basics (as it was done in other subjects), then moving towards creativity and gradual, independent rediscovery, and it was done so in a way that didn't feel stifling if you somehow knew to do it a different way.

Ultimately it's a small country; there was a math bee you could compete in at a local level, and then your district would send the best representatives to the countrywide event. It was a prestigious event, and pretty stressful, but ultimately fun. The questions asked at the national competition were always really oddball and obscure and required both creativity and judicious use of everything you've learned.

Come think of it, the culture of the competitions in various subjects made school really fun.

Some other aspects of my primary school education in Hungary were not so stellar. In other subjects, there was very much a focus on facts in isolation, without really understanding or delving into context, notably in History. Literature I also found limiting, as much emphasis was placed on poetry analysis, which I found to be subjective; nonetheless, diverging from commonly accepted analyses was did not result in a good mark. When I came to the US, I found an emphasis on critical thinking in the Humanities, which was a breath of fresh air.

But in math and science, the quality and method of instruction in Hungary was top-notch.

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by koube on Monday November 13, 2017 @02:35AM (#15684885)
Why is Hungarian math so forward looking but not the other subjects? Is Hungary especially good at math?
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by underwoodley on Monday November 13, 2017 @02:37AM (#15684900)
It's difficult to generalize, but by pretty much any metric you choose Hungary produced a massively disproportionate share of the outstanding mathematicians of the twentieth century.
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by tehlike on Monday November 13, 2017 @03:00AM (#15684981)
can you give couple examples that are most prominent?
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by niftich on Monday November 13, 2017 @03:07AM (#15685007)
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by tehlike on Monday November 13, 2017 @03:18AM (#15685056)
I am curious if it's because they are hungarian, or because they are jewish. Jews pay particular attention to science and arts, from what I gather from my jewish friends. Nobel laureates, for example, have disproportionate amount of jewish among them (compared to jewish population as a percentage of world population).
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by underwoodley on Monday November 13, 2017 @03:41AM (#15685149)
You don't have to be curious for more than five minutes. Several of those mentioned are Jewish, but most of them are not. There are not disproportionately more Jewish Hungarian mathematicians, compared to the proportion of say, Jewish people in Budapest before WWII, or the proportion of Jewish people in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Looking only at the first half of the twentieth century, there at least as many world-ranking mathematicians from Hungary as from Poland, a country with a strong mathematical tradition, a much larger population, and a massively larger Jewish population (around a quarter of the Jewish people in the world in the 1930s).

It's worth adding that comparing the proportion of Jewish Nobel prize winners to Jewish people in the world might not be a fair comparison. Much of this can probably be explained by the strong correlation between being European (including Russian/Soviet) or American, and being a Nobel prize winner.

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by ezequiel-garzon on Monday November 13, 2017 @04:37AM (#15685347)
You don’t have to be very curious to find out that about 22% of Nobel Prize winners have been Jewish [1], which leaves your controversial Western population at under 100 million even stretching the worldwide Jewish population to 20 million.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureat...

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by roi on Monday November 13, 2017 @04:45AM (#15685377)
Except for Bolyai, all mentioned above are indeed Jewish. Also all mentioned in your other comment (Fejér etc.) except Bollobás. Also Wigner, mentioned in another comment.
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by underwoodley on Monday November 13, 2017 @06:54AM (#15685830)
I stand corrected. I wrongly believed that many of these including Fejer and von Neumann were not Jewish.

I think the comparison with other populations such as Poland still seems to point out that something about Hungary in the 20th century was special, other than the presence of many Jewish people.

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by haihaibye on Monday November 13, 2017 @05:32AM (#15685512)
Ashkenazi Jews have an average IQ of 108-112 compared to a European average of ~100. This shifted mean means they have a much higher percentage of very smart people (~6 times per capita rate of >140iq which is the norm for Nobel prize winners)

This over representation of high IQ is similar to the historical over representation in Nobel prizes for hard sciences.

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by SamReidHughes on Monday November 13, 2017 @05:49AM (#15685572)
You can't make conclusions about the number >140 based on a shift of the mean. IQ is scaled so that the general population has a normal distribution. That doesn't necessarily mean some subpopulation has a normal distribution. Even if that was the case, the subpopulation distribution would still have a different standard deviation. (It would partly depend on the level of assortative mating within that population.)
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by haihaibye on Monday November 13, 2017 @06:58AM (#15685844)
Thanks for expanding on the assumptions I was lazy and just used a ~ to indicate it was approximate.
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by dri_ft on Monday November 13, 2017 @04:44AM (#15685371)
You're in luck! Here's a looong in-depth consideration of exactly that: http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/26/the-atomic-bomb-conside...
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by tehlike on Tuesday November 14, 2017 @12:08AM (#15692833)
Thanks. This is pretty interesting read.
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by vilmosi on Tuesday November 14, 2017 @04:25PM (#15699281)
What an odd statement. Nobody said it's because they're Hungarian. It's because of the educational system at the time, which affected everyone in said system, regardless of ethnicity or "average IQ".
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by dgut on Monday November 13, 2017 @08:48AM (#15686476)
With the exception of Bolyai, those are all Jewish. AFAIK Hungary did push above its weight for some time, but that was thanks to its Jewish population. Ironically Hungarians are extremely antisemitic, although nearly all known Hungarians were/are Jewish. Good riddance!
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by Nesze on Monday November 13, 2017 @04:57PM (#15690639)
> Hungarians are extremely antisemitic

One should not make irresponsible comments like this. Yes, I'm Hungarian but claims like these are just plain stupid.

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by Wizek on Tuesday November 14, 2017 @07:54AM (#15694565)
> Hungarians are extremely antisemitic

Some might be, doesn't mean all of them are. So [citation needed].

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by underwoodley on Monday November 13, 2017 @03:37AM (#15685131)
Also Fejér, Turán, Rényi, F. Riesz and M. Riesz, Bollobás
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by zoltaan on Monday November 13, 2017 @11:27AM (#15687620)
Interesting list since they received quite heterogeneous and many times mixed education, home vs. institution, Hungarian vs. foreign, also their adult achievements were many times reached/mastered in other than the educating country. As long as the measure is the production of little children inside one of the historic borders of Hungary (or maybe elsewhere by at least one Hungarian-born parent) who later contributed to mathematics notably, this or that way, here and there, then Hungary is really good at math!
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by patkai on Monday November 13, 2017 @03:35AM (#15685122)
I would add Eugene Wigner, also Nobel laureate.
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by 0xdada on Monday November 13, 2017 @01:32PM (#15688736)
Here's a footnote about Hungarian mathematicians in the 20th century from Prime Obsession. Amazing book by the way, highly recommended.

George Pólya (1887−1985). Look at those dates—another immortal. Pólya was Hungarian. Even more striking than the rise of the Germans in the early nineteenth century was the rise of Hungarians in the early twentieth. While the German states (excluding Austria and Switzerland) in 1800 had about 24 million people, the Hungarian-speaking population of Hungary was around 8.7 million in 1900, and I believe never rose above 10 million. This small and obscure nation produced an astonishing proportion of the world’s finest mathematicians: Bollobás, Erdélyi, Erdős, Fejér, Haar, Kerékjártó, two Kőnigs, Kürschák, Lakatos, Radó, Rényi, two Rieszes, Szász, Szegő, Szokefalvi-Nagy, Turán, von Neumann, and I have probably missed a few. There is a modest literature attempting to explain this phenomenon. Pólya himself thought that the major factor was Fejér (1880−1959), an inspiring teacher and gifted administrator, who attracted and encouraged mathematical talent. A high proportion of the great Hungarian mathematicians (including Fejér) were Jewish—or, like Pólya’s parents, “social” converts to Christianity, of originally Jewish stock.

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by richchurcher on Monday November 13, 2017 @03:07AM (#15685005)
Would Paul Erdős be the most famous? There's even a Wikipedia subcategory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:20th-century_Hungaria....
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by moab on Monday November 13, 2017 @03:08AM (#15685013)
http://www.jurisich-koszeg.sulinet.hu/files/projekt/science/...

The first 5 pages have names that are attached to lots and lots of theorems (disproportionately in combinatorics).

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by a_imho on Monday November 13, 2017 @05:07AM (#15685437)
George Olah passed away in March.
Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by a_imho on Monday November 13, 2017 @05:20AM (#15685469)
Recently Laszlo Babai, Endre Szemeredi, Mario Szegedy

In undergraduate studies the names Denes Konig, Tibor Gallai also come up discussing graphs.

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by niftich on Monday November 13, 2017 @02:47AM (#15684933)
I would say it's always been a bit of a self-affirming, self-fulfilling trope among Hungarians that Hungarians are good at math and science. Some of it is founded in history, and some of it is (make-believe) national mythos.

But that's just local color; I don't actually know if it's true at all, or any time in the recent past.

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by patkai on Monday November 13, 2017 @04:28AM (#15685321)
This question is not just worth understanding in itself but it would be essential to ask at many levels, as science education is becoming the key to the survival of humanity. As a Hungarian who left the country 20 years ago I have been fascinated by this surprising success of the country, partly because I did not personally get a good science education there. Actually, it was very unbalanced, with most of it barely mediocre, while some of it absolutely brilliant. The successful people came from 2-3 high schools (or "gymnasiums", for ages 12-18) in Budapest in the beginning of the 20th century, and whatever success Hungary had in the natural sciences was mostly a result of the work and heritage of that generation. There is a very good description of this in Norman MacRae's book on John von Neumann, worth reading.

A quick summary of the "reasons":

1. Boom: at that time (from 1867 till WWI) Budapest was booming, more attractive to immigrants than New York. Actually, most of the city you can see today was built in those times.

2. Culture: as a result of the boom and the wave of immigrants it became a very liberal and open minded place (though this did not apply to the feudal class at all - their kids typically became soldiers or playboys)

3. Motivation: in a feudal society studying and intellectual eminence was the way to go unless you were born an aristocrat. Parents, students, teachers were willing to put time and money necessary to make their kids excel. This may not sound unusual with all those helicopter parents you see nowadays, but actually this was huge. Imagine growing up in a family where you knew - and your whole family knew - that your only chance of making it is to be the best at math your abilities allow.

4. Education: I don't know where to start, so I can only give examples. Imagine you are a 12 year old child and your teacher borrows you his favourite papers on quantum physics and asks your opinion on them. Then you give a smart comment and your teacher contacts the relevant professor at the university to have a tea with you at your house next Sunday.

5. Language: most of these kids learned Latin and Greek, and in before their teenage years also spoke at least German fluently.

6. The "marble table": Stanislaw Ulam (in his autobiography, another amazing read) and also MacRae tells about the most important ingredient, the marble table at the café (the easy-to-erase whiteboard of the time). In Central Europe mathematicians met at cafeterias, discussed all day (often meaning 12 hour days at a cafe!), challenged each other, and did rarely work in isolation, not worrying too much about "who thought of it first". They happily took young kids in, 15 year olds sipping juice and 50 year old Banach drinking something much stronger (may not have been Banach, but you'll read the book!). It was such a well-known "way of doing math" that the IAS in Princeton was officially established to re-create this culture and pull the typical American professors out of their ivory towers.

It is an elitist system, I know, and does not solve mass education challenges. But this small elite circle had an impact on almost everyone in the country's education system. Even if you weren't a Wigner, Teller or Neumann, you spent 6 years in this environment and possibly became a great teacher, similar to the one who taught half of these people, the great László Rácz [1] and taught in this fashion.

Also, a similar great science education happened in Japan at some point (50's, I think ), but I only read this as a side note in the book on Neumann. Anyway, it is possible to do this again and with two small kids I'm very interested to know how.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_R%C3%A1tz

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by mncharity on Monday November 13, 2017 @01:04PM (#15688470)
> with two small kids I'm very interested to know how.

My few perhaps-non-obvious bits:

If you find yourself saying "really, really (physically) small", or "N times smaller than a human hair", the approach at the top of this[1] might work better.

Estimation is now taught down to K... but oh my is it done badly. PBSKids: "estimate how many jellybeans are in the jar: look at the jar; then write down a number!" (really). But it's been a few years since I looked, so maybe there's something competent now. My suggestion is to emphasize bounding, as it supports better conversations. "How many people are reading HN today? Is it more like 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10k, 100k? Who can suggest a bound? Oh, I'm reading HN! So a hard lower bound of 1! Does everyone buy that? ...".

Toddler-initiated predictable conversations by pointing out selected elements of the environment. Eg, "a map!" and "rust!". "What does it show? Where are we? Where are we going?". "What's the thing rusting? How's the oxygen getting in? What's the rust doing? What did we have for breakfast, that we're oxidizing now?". The map one works best with urban mass transit and museums and such. Rust is everywhere.

[1] How to remember the sizes of small things, top of http://www.clarifyscience.info/part/Atoms

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by Viliam1234 on Tuesday November 14, 2017 @03:03PM (#15698612)
> Anyway, it is possible to do this again and with two small kids I'm very interested to know how.

For math, I recommend Hejny method; I have great experience with it (as a student) https://www.h-mat.cz/en/hejny-method https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm0xsBjdMe4 It is now used experimentally in Czech schools, but the textbooks are translated to other languages, too. You can buy the textbook with the teacher's manual and try it at home. Short version is that this method makes kids discover math on their own (with a lot of nudging, of course), so they can enjoy and remember it better. Works both for gifted and average children, but they will progress at different speeds.

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by vram22 on Monday November 13, 2017 @03:44PM (#15690052)
>Also, a similar great science education happened in Japan at some point (50's, I think )

Interesting comment overall, and also the part I excerpted above. I had read Akio Morita's (Sony co-founder) book, Made in Japan, some years ago. Wonder if that (what you said about science education in Japan) was part of the reason for Sony's success.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akio_Morita

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_Japan_(biography)

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by pliny on Monday November 13, 2017 @07:37AM (#15686020)
>Anyway, it is possible to do this again and with two small kids I'm very interested to know how.

Here's a context-relevant place to start: http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/07/31/book-review-raise-a-gen...

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by mncharity on Monday November 13, 2017 @12:18PM (#15688047)
I wonder if the review is missing some aspects of "concentrate on one subject"?

On one subject, a mentor can be a master, and master instructor. And such instruction is crucial for developing deep expert understanding. But in the future, with better content, and improved learning infrastructure, one might imagine these becoming available for more than one subject.

Both the concentration on one subject, and that subject being chess, contribute to the effort having nice properties. Like non-superficiality. An integrated and deeply organized body of knowledge and skills. Developing transferable knowledge (within the subject at least), rich feedback, and reflective building of mastery. But it's the properties that matter. Chess, or another one subject, might be taught in a way that fails to have the nice properties. And as learning infrastructure improves, the nice properties may become available without the "one subject" or "and it's chess" restrictions.

There's a long history of exceptional masters teaching their field/craft to their children from a young age, who in turn become exceptional masters. The challenge is to scale that.

The straightforward "a gaggle of masters in everyone's pocket" is AI-complete implausible. But the art of the next decade is crafting human-computation hybrid systems. Things like eye tracking, and big data, provide opportunities that no master mentor has ever had. We just need to get around to building on them.

Re:The Hungarian Approach and How It Fits the American Educa... by friendly_chap on Monday November 13, 2017 @02:41AM (#15684913)
I believe history and literature are sensitive subjects politically, hence the official ways of teaching it are somewhat limiting (intentionally). However, most teachers I had contact with/heard of are exceptionally good, so I guess it comes down to luck.