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Re:The Case for RSS by account0099099 on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:15PM (#15673525)
I bet if someone re-wrote the specification using JSON or YAML, everyone would start using it again.
Re:The Case for RSS by da_chicken on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:33PM (#15673633)
No, the problem with RSS is two fold:

1. You have to get users to clickthrough to get your ad revenue, but you also need enough content in the RSS to encourage them to click at all. It feels like you put effort into this thing that prevents users from spot checking your website, which reduces your revenue. And you're hosting the RSS feed, too, so it costs bandwidth!

2. Twitter is easier to use (for you and your audience), is where the audience is, and is "good enough".

Re:The Case for RSS by giobox on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:42PM (#15673695)
Twitter is absolutely what eventually killed my RSS usage. Human curated links in my Twitter feed, vs the firehose of articles that often fill up the RSS feeds of many sites.
Re:The Case for RSS by toomuchtodo on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:52PM (#15673765)
Could any service not offer this curation? Try Pocket for an example.
Re:The Case for RSS by giobox on Friday November 10, 2017 @06:14PM (#15673894)
I've used countless 'read it later' services like Pocket, Instapaper etc over the years (even some on PalmOS...), but for me at least the combination of Twitter plus the much more reliable cellular data we have now has made them less appealing.

Twitter has advantages beyond just the links being shared - the tweets themselves are often interesting to me, and the list of people I follow has been carefully built over time to the point it would be annoying for me to switch again now.

I'm sure these are great options for others though, but I don't think I'm alone in using Twitter as a kind of curated RSS replacement.

Re:The Case for RSS by toomuchtodo on Friday November 10, 2017 @06:56PM (#15674120)
Thanks for the reply! I don’t use Twitter, so I’m always interested in getting input from people who still are.
Re:The Case for RSS by lucaspiller on Friday November 10, 2017 @11:53PM (#15675046)
Maybe 7 years ago I built a service that would track links from your Twitter feed, mainly because I was posting links I found interesting and wanted a way to refer back to them later.

I intended to have it track all links from people you follow too, to give a curated list of links, but Twitter was aggressively making changes to restrict their API so this became impossible.

Re:The Case for RSS by toomuchtodo on Saturday November 11, 2017 @12:14PM (#15677117)
That’s sort of what I was getting at. There’s no reason RSS couldn’t be extended to support the curation people are familiar with on twitter.

Protocols and an open web over walled gardens.

Re:The Case for RSS by mceoin on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:21PM (#15673560)
I suspect you might be right.

Personally, I think the main reason RSS failed to get bigger adoption was a UX problem. Clicking on RSS and getting a page of code is just too confronting for most people. Thus it never managed to get the same adoption as other republishing buttons like Pin, Like or Share.

Re:The Case for RSS by kazinator on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:50PM (#15673749)
The main problem with RSS is that it is simply not discoverable.

The related UX problem is that major browsers didn't have a built-in reader, so there is nothing with which to discover RSS.

To use RSS, you have to get some add-on like Brief for FireFox, or third-party app for Android. Or else use some website like Google Reader (I think that's dead now?).

Before you do that, in the first place, you have to know what the heck RSS is, and what are the benefits: why should you be installing this additional stuff for interacting with some hidden aspect of the web.

Browsers need to make it discoverable by alerting users, like by bringing up a bubble: "Hey, user! This web page's updating listings are available in a condensed RSS feed [learn more.] You can register the feed into my built-in feed reader, and then not only browse the items conveniently, but be alerted of new ones, search through the items, and delete ones you don't want."*

When we were recently looking, on Craigslist, for a bunch of different types of items simultaneously, I showed my wife RSS. From the beginning: how it is the condensed version of a web-site, and how you need a program to deal with it (went through an installation of Brief on Firefox). Then how you add feeds to the reader, and go look at them through the Brief toolbar button, etc. Then configuration: explaining how Brief just surfs the RSS periodically the same way that a human being refreshes a web page, and that the frequency can be configured, as well as how long the items are stored.

So after that she was using it daily, no problem, and mostly liking the convenience of just checking the feeds for what has dripped in, and being able to erase the duds, as if it were an e-mail inbox.

Re:The Case for RSS by neilparikh on Friday November 10, 2017 @06:57PM (#15674124)
Actually, Firefox has built in RSS support, under the name live bookmarks.

I think the button for RSS was shown by default in the past, but now you have to add it to the browser UI manually (presumably, it was hidden because no one used it).

Re:The Case for RSS by ece on Friday November 10, 2017 @07:04PM (#15674156)
Profiles on FB and Twitter are decidedly less discoverable than blogs and potential RSS feeds. I can subscribe in one click from Firefox, same from Chrome with an official add-on. I won't need to come back to the original site unless I absolutely want to.

I think the problem is in monetization, that's why FB and Twitter stopped offering them, and Google killed GReader too. It's not a coincidence that Twitter is having trouble monetizing, when it's the new way to get news. As a publisher and as a reader RSS makes perfect sense, but how do you build a generic infrastructure in between the two as a utility? This is essentially the question.

Re:The Case for RSS by kazinator on Friday November 10, 2017 @07:29PM (#15674253)
Yes; sites don't want you to know about RSS because it's a way to bypass their portals to just get to the goods.

I suspect that most sites that have RSS feeds don't expose them intentionally. They just used some framework which automatically creates it. If they knew, they'd put an end to it. "What, someone can grab a list of our items without seeing the main page at all? Turn that shit off!"

Even though the items do contain links that beckon the user to that site, it still minimizes their interaction.

Re:The Case for RSS by ece on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:53PM (#15674563)
No, it helps discover-ability, and makes me more likely to come back when instead I might not bother. Marketers and someone wanting people to read their content would know the value of RSS.

Even if you're ad-supported, I'm more likely to visit you if you have an RSS feed. Not to mention any non-profit or academic website could let people follow new developments easier.

Re:The Case for RSS by rabboRubble on Friday November 10, 2017 @06:36PM (#15674013)
> not discoverable....

How is going to a 3rd party site like Google Reader (yes, it's dead and damn Google for killing it) any less discoverable than going to WaPo or Facebook? I make a conscience effort to go consume these sites. I made a conscience decision to consume my information from Google Reader. Or it's replacement.

RSS buttons are (were?) right along side Facebook, Twitter, Google+ buttons 10 years ago. Not that difficult.

If Facebook suddenly announced an RSS component to their service, people would use it. I know when Google reader dropped their Google Reader service, there was a hue and cry about it. Google said the usage numbers were flat. I suspect in great part because Google's lessor products come and go all the damn time. If the product is not integrated into Gmail or YouTube, 99.9% of their user base does not know of the service's existence.

Re:The Case for RSS by kazinator on Friday November 10, 2017 @07:26PM (#15674245)
> How is going to a 3rd party site like Google Reader (yes, it's dead and damn Google for killing it) any less discoverable than going to WaPo or Facebook?

Facebook is discoverable because people invite you there, sites link to it, and you're often prompted to "log in with your Facebook account" into every damn thing you visit. People talk about Facebook; you hear it on the news, etc.

Facebook per se isn't discoverable. If Zuck had just registered "facebook.com", the domain, and put a server there and waited without promoting it, there would be no Facebook.

Re:The Case for RSS by rabboRubble on Friday November 10, 2017 @11:51PM (#15675038)
Weeeeeeeell technically back in the day Google Reader would have worked just like that. Logging into Google Reader would could have permitted logging into any platform with integrated Google sign-in for their platform.

I still hold massive butthurt towards Google for abandoning Reader. It marked a pivot away from open technology platforms. Perhaps people don't know about RSS because Google / FB / Twitter prefer you not use it? These giants encourage passive consumption and discourage DIY curation of content. If I can currate my own content lists, I bypass their ad revenue generating framework, picking and choosing only those things I want to read. They receive no information about why I choose that specific article to read. I've made it a priority to trim my usage of Google to the extent possible. I dream of someday abandoning Gmail.

Good article from back in the day about the whys and wherefores of Google Reader's demise.

https://gigaom.com/2013/07/03/google-readers-shutdown-the-ri...

Re:The Case for RSS by lj3 on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:47PM (#15673722)
Hell, just finding the RSS feed on some sites is like going on a scavenger hunt. I really wish the html spec itself had a standardized way of defining the rss file for a site, like they do for favicon.
Re:The Case for RSS by explainplease on Friday November 10, 2017 @06:31PM (#15673996)
It does. In the HEAD, LINK tags with REL="alternate" and TYPE="application/rss+xml" (or "atom" instead of "rss").
Re:The Case for RSS by hopesthoughts on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:58PM (#15673802)
I use the RSS feed finder user script. If it really can't find it, I use the feed autodetect bookmarklet. Both work well for me.
Re:The Case for RSS by bob9 on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:57PM (#15673792)
Don't sites put it in the HTML meta headers anymore? This is then picked up by the browser and displayed under the feed icon/menu.
Re:The Case for RSS by giobox on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:38PM (#15673675)
Safari in Mac OS X did a pretty nice job of rendering the feed for a basic feed reader back when it still had the big blue RSS link button in the URL bar, no raw XML to speak of:

https://www.askdavetaylor.com/0-blog-pics/safari-rss-view.jp...

I used to use this A LOT back in the day, often finding it preferable to many site's native UIs.

Re:The Case for RSS by bob9 on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:33PM (#15673630)
If you click on RSS in a browser, you're presented with a HTML rendering of the feed. What browser or messaging application (Thunderbird and friends) doesn't do this?
Re:The Case for RSS by aaronpk on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:16PM (#15673529)
Re:The Case for RSS by giobox on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:25PM (#15673589)
I really like jsonfeed, but I just can’t envisage it getting anything like the ubiquity RSS enjoyed in the mid 2000s, when even Safari had a pretty reasonable feed reader built in. Back then my main way of following news/blogs was to combine the RSS feeds of my favourite sites, giving me a single view onto all the news I cared about.

What killed it for me personally though wasn’t the slow death of widespread RSS, but weirdly Twitter. Twitter can be a great news link replacement for RSS if you used RSS the way I did, as the links the people you follow share have been curated by those people themselves. I started to find a much better “hit rate” for content I wanted to read by seeing what influencers in industries I have an interest in share, rather than the hosepipe of stories that RSS was providing. I found I was still getting all the content I wanted without having to wade through all the noise, at which point I just stopped using RSS altogether.

I do however agree it is another sad indicator of a dying open web though.

Re:The Case for RSS by ravenstine on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:25PM (#15673586)
RSS is difficult to implement? Since when?

Sure, it's XML. And had I been the one to design it from the start, I would have gone with JSON. But come on.

RSS has been losing ground because, deep down, people love the algorithms. I personally hate how algorithms artificially mangle content that I would have seen anyway if my "timeline" was chronological; it's annoying to me to have stories from hours or days prior to appear near the top of my feed because everyone has already seen the same thing by now and new comments are worthless/unseen after a givens tory is ~1.5 hours old.

Re:The Case for RSS by AndrewCHM on Friday November 10, 2017 @07:25PM (#15674243)
Its XML which requires a more difficult tree abstraction instead of a mapping/list abstraction

and the XML wraps html-formatted articles, so unless you hate yourself, you'll need to be embedding a browser for rendering, which means bundling a browser too (even on certain browser embed providing platforms like win32, since it still uses IE11 as its browser embed)

of course its easy to generate RSS.

- - -

and thats nevermind the whole impossibility of getting all articles without a daemon on a separate server, especially for high-volume feeds

Re:The Case for RSS by AndrewCHM on Friday November 10, 2017 @07:24PM (#15674233)
Its XML which requires a more difficult tree abstraction instead of a mapping/list abstraction

and the XML wraps html-formatted articles, so unless you hate yourself, you'll need to be embedding a browser for rendering, which means bundling a browser too (even on certain browser embed providing platforms like win32, since it still uses IE11 as its browser embed)

of course its easy to generate RSS

Re:The Case for RSS by spaceseaman on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:32PM (#15673628)
> RSS is difficult to implement? Since when?

He didn't say that - just that people find JSON exciting. There are many things that have been rewritten in JSON just to become popular again, or things people have done long before but are exciting because they're now JSON.

Re:The Case for RSS by ravenstine on Friday November 10, 2017 @06:41PM (#15674032)
I would love to believe that idea would work.

What are some examples of concepts written for JSON that became more successful than their predecessor?

Re:The Case for RSS by s73ver_ on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:18PM (#15673540)
RSS was never difficult, and just about every language out there already has RSS libraries.
Re:The Case for RSS by MBCook on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:59PM (#15673808)
The biggest problem is the number of people who rolled their own XML generators or use broken templates to generate the XML.
Re:The Case for RSS by jasonkostempski on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:42PM (#15674525)
Not sites that are solely driven by ad revenue. Most sites that aren't, still offer an RSS feed, it's just not always visible on the page. Some sites I've subscribed to and contacted for minor RSS related issues, didn't even realize they had it, it was just part of the publishing platform they used and the feed was exposed through a link tag in the markup. I don't think the protocol has anything to do with the choice to provide a feed, in fact, yet-another-protocol would just make it a harder for everyone involved.
Re:The Case for RSS by ece on Friday November 10, 2017 @05:28PM (#15673607)
Everyone is still using it, they're just getting their feeds differently (or going to the website directly) and Facebook might just be the lone big publisher to stop publishing feeds.
Re:The Case for RSS by vshabanov on Saturday November 11, 2017 @11:43AM (#15676991)
There is already https://jsonfeed.org but it's just an example of famous "now there are 15 competing standards" comics (https://xkcd.com/927/).

From RSS reader developer perspective (I'm author of BazQux Reader https://bazqux.com) problem with RSS/Atom is that there are many feed generators (and even handwritten feeds) each with its own understanding of standard or without understanding at all. And good feed reader need to handle many quirky issues to support all kinds of feeds.

With new feed format there will still be old bugs and problems (duplicating IDs, missing IDs, new IDs for the same posts, duplicated posts, misconfigured web servers, servers down and so on). And new format needs to duplicated efforts like MediaRSS for extended information about podcasts (which JSON Feed is missing).

Problem with RSS is not a format (end users won't read XML/JSON anyway) but needs of average user, time to setup, vogue, no profit for big players and so on. People, not tech problem.