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Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by jstanley on Friday November 10, 2017 @08:58AM (#15669866)
If it's truly at the cost of the workers, why do the workers put up with it? If it's so easy to go and work for Black Cab in London, wouldn't they just do that instead?

Or perhaps Uber are actually providing a useful source of work to drivers who otherwise wouldn't be working at all?

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by dx034 on Friday November 10, 2017 @11:11AM (#15670834)
A lot of Europeans (including me) are of the opinion that a job without protection (minimum wage, sick pay, health insurance, unemployment insurance/benefits, cover for accidents) shouldn't exist. Someone should rather be unemployed and receive benefits while looking for employment or while retraining than being exploited by a company. Not saying that this is the case with all Uber drivers but there's a decent amount of people who work hours that would be illegal in any employment while earning just enough to survive. The reasons why people still accept these jobs are diverse but Uber's promises of good wages (>£10/hr) played a role getting many to drive. And once you have your car and license you need to drive to pay off loans.

Being self employed can have its benefits but Uber drivers enjoy very few of those.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by pm90 on Friday November 10, 2017 @11:29AM (#15670968)
I think a lot of Americans have a different view of how labor and markets should work. Especially on this forum, which is very much pro-laissez faire capitalism (I see a lot of Randian themes being repeated).

Labor can be exploited only when a corporation can sidestep the organized labor pool and tap into the pool of labor that demands no protections. If most Americans thought as you did, I don't think American corporations could get away with paying their employees such pitiful wages and benefits.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by Joky on Friday November 10, 2017 @12:06PM (#15671239)
This is forgetting that most craftsmanship small shops or other individual profession are self-employed and don't have minimum wage, maximum hours, unemployment benefits, etc. Think about bakers, nurses (outside of clinics/hospital), etc. It is not clear why "taxi drivers" shouldn't be allowed for people to be self-employed and managed their time themselves.
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by dx034 on Thursday November 16, 2017 @04:39AM (#15711367)
Because truly self employed people can decide who they work for and how they structure their business. With Uber, you're very restricted in how you're set up (rules on cars) and who you work for (forced to accept jobs). Taxi drivers can be self employed and have been for a long time in most countries but Uber has more power over the drivers than is usual for self employed people.
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by Joky on Thursday November 16, 2017 @05:13AM (#15711510)
I was addressing the part of your comment that mentioned "a job without protection (minimum wage, sick pay, health insurance, unemployment insurance/benefits, cover for accidents) shouldn't exist".
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by SilasX on Friday November 10, 2017 @04:23PM (#15673168)
I don't think Europeans consistently adhere to that, since they allow small business proprietors and (legit) contractors to work for low effective wages. To the extent that such workers receive benefits, they're paid directly by the state rather than, "Hey client/customer, you need to stop exploiting that contractor/business; give them some health insurance!"
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by ryanpepper on Friday November 10, 2017 @11:09AM (#15670812)
It takes about 2 years to do the training to be a Black Cab driver in London:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7gp8KBP7ak

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by Silhouette on Friday November 10, 2017 @09:43AM (#15670122)
If it's so easy to go and work for Black Cab in London, wouldn't they just do that instead?

It is not easy to go and work as a traditional taxi driver in London. There are various regulations on taxis and taxi drivers in the UK anyway, and in addition, in London taxi drivers are required to pass an infamously difficult test known as The Knowledge proving that they can navigate effectively around London streets.

One of the big objections to Uber and the like is that they attempt to bypass some of those regulations and that training, and the regulations and training are there for a reason. To the extent that this confers a competitive advantage to Uber drivers over black-cabbies, it's a rather unfair one.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by zlynx on Friday November 10, 2017 @12:39PM (#15671486)
If the rules "are there for a reason" then black cabs would be obviously superior and wouldn't be at a competitive disadvantage.

So, obviously those rules don't matter as much to customers as convenience, price and availability do.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by Silhouette on Friday November 10, 2017 @06:19PM (#15673925)
If the rules "are there for a reason" then black cabs would be obviously superior and wouldn't be at a competitive disadvantage.

In some ways, black cabs are obviously superior. To pick a few examples, their pricing is regulated by local authorities, they are required to be wheelchair accessible, and their drivers are required to have The Knowledge along with various other qualifications before being licensed.

To the extent that black cabs may be at a competitive disadvantage compared to Uber's standard (non-surge) pricing, that is in part because Uber's current financial model seems to be subsidising every journey using the vast amounts of funding they have accepted. That is not sustainable. It is also in part because of exactly the sort of issues we're talking about today, where they've been cutting their costs at the expense of their drivers in legally questionable ways, which again is hardly playing on a level field.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by candiodari on Friday November 10, 2017 @07:54PM (#15674361)
Having driven one of them you forgot:

* Rude

* Will demand payment in cash, and only when you threaten them with non-payment repeatedly will allow you to pay with credit cards, DESPITE agreeing to it beforehand.

* Unwilling to stop where the customer wants them to

* Don't get out of the car to put luggage in the trunk

I hate Uber's labour practices, but there are major issues with black cabs.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by Angostura on Friday November 10, 2017 @11:45AM (#15671069)
> If it's truly at the cost of the workers, why do the workers put up with it? If it's so easy to go and work for Black Cab in London, wouldn't they just do that instead?

To work as as a Black Cab in London you have to do The Knowledge - which can take several years to complete https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/licensing...

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by oliwarner on Friday November 10, 2017 @11:07AM (#15670798)
It's famously difficult to become a black cab driver in London. You need to know every road in the city to pass "The Knowledge" test. Well beside public safety health tests.
Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by detritus on Friday November 10, 2017 @11:50AM (#15671115)
And I'm glad of it! There's little more frustrating in a taxi than finding out the driver's stupidly and witlessly following whatever Map application they have suction-cupped to their windscreen, rather than using actual knowledge to go smarter, quicker routes.

Especially when they start off the wrong way or take a wrong turn and their map app dutifully encourages them around some longer path.

Re:Uber loses court appeal against drivers' rights by rrhd on Friday November 10, 2017 @03:29PM (#15672715)
Some starving to death might agree to work for me for just room and board.

It doesn't mean that I can target disadvantaged people for slavery. Uber needs to be held to proper standards.