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Re:A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening... by dcow on Thursday November 02, 2017 @08:11PM (#15615581)
But Kumail's point isn't about whether these companies are patriotic, he's saying they lack any ethical framework of operation and presumes it's because people aren't challenging each other with ethical questions preferring to condone any behavior in favor of flexing engineering muscles and proving that, "yes, they can".

I don't think it's unrelated, and perhaps your point is that it's doubly clear no one has thought about ethics when you examine Sean's contradictory responses. But I think the lack of patriotism is more of an example.

Anyway, at the end of the day we're all people and we are the ones that depend on these companies and services. If you don't believe a company is behaving ethically, stop using their services. Make a damn sacrifice and live your virtue. Sure maybe we could argue that to some extent and in certain cases some companies have crossed the line and are harmfully exploiting customers to the extent that there should be legal ramifications, but the government does not exist to provide you an ethically sterile society. It exist to maintain and protect basic human rights--at least in the US as far as the formal documentation is concerned.

As far as I can gather based on armchair political philosophy over drinks.. most people don't actually care about privacy and rank convenience or safety (at the expense of said privacy) higher in their priorities. I find that unfortunate but at the same time I still haven't worked up the courage to totally disband my Facebook account and switch completely over to my proton mail accounts. So it's complicated.

If we could all agree that privacy is a fundamental human right which you would think would be supported by the constitution in the US then, we should actually act/rally to legislate such as other countries have done. Yet at the same time because these companies operate globally, they serve a diverse spectrum of users who may or may not share the same political and social values as we do in the US. This extends to the very employees who are "failing to ask the ethical questions" that Kumail can so obviously see are overlooked. This is globalization.

TL;DR: they do this because they can, and they can because you let them.

Re:A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening... by abandonliberty on Thursday November 02, 2017 @09:05PM (#15615913)
>TL;DR: they do this because they can, and they can because you let them.

You may be passionate and well informed enough to have the strength of conviction to take appropriate action, but most people are not.

Nothing will change unless you can affect the behavior of others. You will be fought every step of the way: for the company, this is a fight for survival.

>they can because you let them.

What does this statement reveal about your internal dialogue? You can't expect people who don't understand or who aren't involved to take action. You are delegating your responsibility. Perhaps it is good for your ego, but I can tell you how it turns out.

A more appropriate statement would be, "because I let them."

Re:A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening... by dcow on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:11AM (#15617456)
I'm not trying to deflect personal responsibility and I fortunately have not been in a position where I've had to make an ethical decision that would contradict the wishes of my employer (nor do I work for an employer in the realm of data hungry social media/advertisement) but I have come close WRT intellectual property and software patents. My comment which admitttedly digresses slightly at the end is more about the fact that I find it hard for a company or a group of people to agree on _any_ sort of ethical framework these days when we have such a wide array of cultural backgrounds. I may not like giving up privacy in exchange for auto-gifs of my photo albums, but plenty of people love it, and is it even my place to tell you how you should feel about it (different from telling you how I feel about it and why)? I and other individuals and digital rights advocacy groups do have the conversations about the fallout of letting companies run around unchecked with all the data. And I support the other individuals in arguments and the organizations financially (and as I mentioned try to lead by example). My take away from those conversations however is that privacy is not as much a concern as you or I or Kumail might agree it is right here right now. I don't see how I can have more stake in the game short of shouting louder or deciding to pivot my personal career into public advocacy or civil service... Am I really responsible for indoctrinating others into my own privacy conscious worldview? At the end of the day you have to educate yourself and form your own worldview and live out a set of virtues. If you don't do that or choose a different worldview or set of virtues than me, is that my fault? And if a group of individuals who don't care about the same virtues as I do are at the helm of a company, it's a failure on my part to have prevented that situation from happening? Maybe I'm not 100% clear on your point.
Re:A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening... by abandonliberty on Friday November 03, 2017 @04:16PM (#15621930)
Yes, we're on the same page. It's great that you're supporting organizations and people with this.

>deciding to pivot my personal career into public advocacy or civil service

There have been worse ideas. It's worth fighting. :)

Organizations will engage in behavior if the expected risk-adjusted payoff is sufficiently large, from eroding privacy to cheating emissions tests. Unless we can change that equation we should expect to lose in the long run. This behavior is emergent, based on laws of power and organizational structure.

Organizations stand to win far more than lose, and a victory for us does not provide the same millions of dollars. They get stronger as we get weaker, and they use that strength to win people over to their position.

Re:A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening... by itronitron on Thursday November 02, 2017 @10:57PM (#15616371)
The social media companies (FB and Twitter) in particular seem to care nothing about the quality of their service otherwise they would be working to keep fake news and astroturfing campaigns off their platforms. I find that weird, or at least telling about how they feel about their relationship to users of the platform (yes I know 'the user is the product'). The lack of ethics need not be narrowed to a lack of patriotism as the lack of ethics is a problem globally for these companies. A sick individual could seriously fuck up any community through disinformation with enough time and resources. FB and Twitter are fully engaged enabling advertisers and care nothing about the messaging, content, or end result of any campaign as long as they get a hit off the impact.
Re:A “Silicon Valley” actor is terrified by what’s happening... by stevenwoo on Friday November 03, 2017 @12:27AM (#15616693)
I think user engagement is much more important to these companies than any ethical qualm about truth and fairness. It was pretty obvious when Facebook killed its human news editor program because they kept spiking viral but fake news stories from sites like Infowars and Breitbart and conservative media outlets complained about bias against them.