News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by simias on Friday October 27, 2017 @10:41AM (#15568789)
I guess the point is that given that the spanish government considered the referendum illegal, people not in favor of independence would probably not have wanted to caution it by participating. Clearly in these conditions the results can't be trusted.

It's more like "90% of the people who thought the referendum was legitimate are in favor of independence". There's obviously a big selection bias.

As for the question of whether the referendum was legitimate or not, the problem in my opinion is how can you consider a referendum democratic if only a tiny portion of the country's population gets to take the decision? Catalunia becoming independent would have consequences throughout the country, shouldn't everybody get to vote?

And if not, where do you draw the line? Paris and its region generate about 1/6th of the total GDP of France, what if Parisians decided to declare independence? What about the Lega Nord in Italy? And let's not even talk about the historical economic divide between eastern/western Germany or the variations of GDP between states in the USA.

What if all the rich people in Japan decided to all move to an inhabited island and declare independence with 100% of the vote? Would that be legitimate?

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by Ajedi32 on Friday October 27, 2017 @11:10AM (#15569131)
> Catalunia becoming independent would have consequences throughout the country, shouldn't everybody get to vote?

That's a strange argument. Should the other member states of the EU have gotten to vote on Brexit?

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by simias on Friday October 27, 2017 @11:31AM (#15569356)
Brexit was made possible by article 50 of the treaty on european union[1]. This article was introduced by the treaty of Lisbon[2] which was approved by the european parliament and ratified by all EU members.

So while only UK citizens got to vote on brexit the legal possibility to exit the union was actually approved by all the EU members. If there was an article in the spanish constitution that allowed for a region to secede under certain conditions we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Furthermore the UK always remained a sovereign state, with its own currency, army etc... It's hardly comparable to Catalunya. The scottish referendum would be a better comparison.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_50_of_the_Treaty_on_Eu...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by gonvaled on Friday October 27, 2017 @11:45AM (#15569507)
And that is exactly the problem. A state constitution which is unable to adapt to a changing society is destined to irrelevance.

Authority emanates from people, not from papers.

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by simias on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:07PM (#15570239)
I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you think the majority of spaniards would support amending the constitution to allow for a region to declare independence? Seems really dubious to me. And if not, then why blame the constitution?
Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by gonvaled on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:05PM (#15572957)
I mean a Constitution is not, and must not be, respected if it goes against the will of a big part of the population.

A state constitution must offer a framework which is interesting for all of its peoples and territories: if big groups of people do not see the point of it, it looses its validity.

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by bad_user on Friday October 27, 2017 @01:16PM (#15570332)
No dude, authority emanates from armies, which are never irrelevant. And the writing is on the wall.

I hope the Catalans that voted to leave have really good reasons to do it, because if the situation isn't defused somehow, there are some tough times ahead.

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by gonvaled on Friday October 27, 2017 @07:07PM (#15572970)
That is true for primitive societies. Modern, civiliced societies do not resort to violence when they lose the war of words and persuassion.

It is not clear we are in a modern era.

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by logfromblammo on Friday October 27, 2017 @11:47AM (#15569526)
The people of Catalonia vote on whether they are willing to fight for their independence. The people in the rest of Spain can vote on whether they are willing to force that fight to take place.

An EU vote on Brexit would make no sense, as one or more of the countries would have to withdraw from NATO in order for a war to occur. The unlikelihood of war among NATO members is probably one of the reasons why exit procedures exist in the first place--the other notable reason being that some countries never would have joined in the first place, if they thought they would have to fight their way out.

Spain, on the other hand, has apparently never been shy about fighting Spaniards. It might be appropriate for Spain to hold a vote, but only to show Catalonia what it may be up against, and a "no" vote gives the national government a mandate to be brutal. They can, of course, be just as brutal after a "yes" vote, but the propaganda budget would be higher.

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by dragonwriter on Friday October 27, 2017 @11:53AM (#15569586)
> An EU vote on Brexit would make no sense, as one or more of the countries would have to withdraw from NATO in order for a war to occur.

No, it might be that, if a war occurred either NATO would cease to exist as a credible alliance or one or more countries would be expelled from it and find themselves at war with it, but certainly withdrawal from NATO isn't a necessary precondition for war.

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by hospes on Friday October 27, 2017 @04:08PM (#15571790)
Self determination would be meaningless if entire country or entity needs to vote to allow its parts to become independent.

There are many examples of self determination in 20th and 21st century, and normally only region/area that wants to become independent votes. Most recent example is independence referendum in Scotland. Entire UK did not vote, only Scotland voted.