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Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by tom_mellior on Friday October 27, 2017 @10:14AM (#15568478)
> the government was using violent means to ensure the rule of law

Beating up people for trying to put a piece of paper into a box is not "the rule of law".

The rule of law would have been to let people put pieces of paper into boxes, then go out the next day and arrest the organizers of the referendum.

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by beojan on Friday October 27, 2017 @10:20AM (#15568527)
The rule of law would have been letting people put pieces of paper in boxes, then laughing when they vote no anyway. From what I've seen, they would probably have voted against independence if Spain hadn't tried to stop the referendum.

Had they voted for independence anyway, the Spanish government could then refuse to recognize it because it was unconstitutional.

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by pbhjpbhj on Friday October 27, 2017 @10:30AM (#15568654)
I think it's actually a tougher call than you suggest, allowing the referendum to resolve could easily foment more unrest and a greater more violent outcome.

I would not have ordered such action, FWIW.

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by tom_mellior on Friday October 27, 2017 @12:26PM (#15569876)
> I think it's actually a tougher call than you suggest

No. "Police should only beat people as a last resort to keep them from causing direct, immediate bodily harm to others" is not a tough call at all.

Even if having police present was a good idea (it wasn't), they should have had the strictest orders to, you know, not hit people with sticks.

> allowing the referendum to resolve could easily foment more unrest and a greater more violent outcome

You are arguing for punishing people, by causing them physical harm, without court orders, for things others might possibly do in the future. You are arguing for the exact opposite of the rule of law.

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by pbhjpbhj on Friday October 27, 2017 @12:42PM (#15570005)
OK, AIUI the law in Spain means that only central gov can order a referendum. The vote was declared illegal and those party to it were thus breaking the law, conspiring to harm the constitutional standing of the country.

If you were voting, supporting voters, etc., you were breaking the law, refusal to stop is contravening the law and the police should then act accordingly, using force if people refuse to stop supporting the vote.

Imagine it was an illegal march of white supremacists in USA, or National Front in UK.

It devolves into violence when people choose to ignored the rule of law and give no other option to maintain the law than to apply violence.

Unless the separatists want to negotiate then violence is literally the only recourse that Spain has to defend its constitution. Perhaps it shouldn't, but anything else is just letting an undemocratic action force an unwanted change.

Re:Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain by tom_mellior on Friday October 27, 2017 @02:06PM (#15570792)
> OK, AIUI the law in Spain means that only central gov can order a referendum. The vote was declared illegal and those party to it were thus breaking the law, conspiring to harm the constitutional standing of the country.

My understanding is the same. Which is why I wrote above that they should have gone out and actually arrested the separatist leaders who organized all this. This could have played out in the courts (up to the Court of Justice of the European Union, I would guess).

But sending a few thousand (or tens of thousands?) police against millions of voters was not about this. Whatever they thought they were trying to do, it was not possible with these numbers. And as far as I can tell, they did not try to arrest people. They did not try to get people's personal data to get them before of a court at some other point. They did not show up in time to simply barricade the doors of polling stations. In short, they were not enforcing or upholding the law in any meaningful sense.