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Re:The story of the 1968 “Fuck the Draft” poster by criddell on Friday October 20, 2017 @05:31PM (#15519237)
I've been watching Ken Burns' Vietnam documentary and it made me think about the protestors and how the government reacted. The people that protested should be very proud of their actions because it feels like they were right.

I wonder how soldiers or police from that era feel about the documentary. The soldiers clearly were ordered into a terrible war. The police can't be proud of their role either.

Re:The story of the 1968 “Fuck the Draft” poster by fotbr on Friday October 20, 2017 @07:46PM (#15519869)
I have relatives that served in Vietnam (drafted, most served in the enlisted ranks), and worked with several other Vietnam veterans (all retired officers, all were career military, and nearly all had been commissioned before the Vietnam War had started).

I, perhaps oddly, do not know how my relatives feel about the war or the Ken Burns documentary. Most flat out refuse to talk about those years. Perhaps that's not so odd, given the times and situations they faced both abroad and on coming home.

The folks I worked with, on the other hand, were pretty uniformly proud of the job they and their men did. They did not all agree with the politics surrounding the war, both in recent years as well as at the time, but being professionals, they did as they were ordered. Several of them, now professors of U.S. History, thought the Ken Burns' documentary was very well done, and reflected reality in a way that Hollywood never did or desired to. A couple of those professors include the Burns' documentary as part of their courses' curriculum.

I don't know if any of that helps with your curiosity.

Re:The story of the 1968 “Fuck the Draft” poster by criddell on Saturday October 21, 2017 @08:11AM (#15521613)
> were pretty uniformly proud of the job they and their men did

Individually, I'm sure there's plenty to be proud of. But as a group, they did a lot of terrible and evil things extremely well.

Since starting that documentary, when I've been thinking about large protests, I'm struck by how often the protestors are right. I know going forward it's going to change how I see big protests.

Re:The story of the 1968 “Fuck the Draft” poster by Feniks on Saturday October 21, 2017 @04:16PM (#15523402)
Keep in mind the war was enacted by a democratically elected government. There's no diminished responsibility.

Very few folks decided to return their passports and emigrate. People liked to blame the Army but everything that happened was in the name of the American people and by their leave.

"I didn't know" and "I thought it was a bakery" are poor excuses.

Re:The story of the 1968 “Fuck the Draft” poster by criddell on Sunday October 22, 2017 @01:24PM (#15527848)
> the war was enacted by a democratically elected government

If Burns' documentary is correct, the government and military lied about pretty much all aspects of the war. If that wasn't the case, I would agree that the American people are to blame.

> Very few folks decided to return their passports and emigrate.

Thank goodness for that. The people that fought the most against the war may very well be the best Americans.

In the first Gulf War when we (the US) were bombing Iraq to take out the supposed weapons of mass destruction, I supported the action. I remember arguing with my sister that even though it might be wrong for the US to invade another country, removing Hussein's offensive capabilities was too important. The ends will justify the means! Boy, was I wrong. Again though, it was lying by the government, failures of the press, and failures of officials I trusted (esp. Colin Powell) that was the basis of my support.

Re:The story of the 1968 “Fuck the Draft” poster by gedy on Saturday October 21, 2017 @11:46AM (#15522210)
> Individually, I'm sure there's plenty to be proud of. But as a group, they did a lot of terrible and evil things extremely well.

You could say the same for many of the"anti-war" movement. Individually there was a lot of concern and desire to do the right thing, but the context of the Vietnam war was it was also a civil war, and many people in Vietnam wanted to fight back against communists who had been doing some pretty awful things. So collectively, there was some undermining of resistance to them, and which also resulted in millions? of refugees and hundreds of thousands in life loss after the war.

Re:The story of the 1968 “Fuck the Draft” poster by averagewall on Saturday October 21, 2017 @06:48AM (#15521417)
It seems common for soldiers to have such extreme deferrence to rank that they can proudly do things that they otherwise belive are wrong just because their boss told them to. I used to work with an Afganistan veteran and he was the same - fighting was somehow good but the politicians making the decisions were making wrong decisions. Why not quit if you're part of something you think is wrong?
Re:The story of the 1968 “Fuck the Draft” poster by hutzlibu on Saturday October 21, 2017 @07:39AM (#15521530)
"Why not quit if you're part of something you think is wrong?"

Because then you have to really start thinking on your own plus you don't get the benefits of the army anymore. Comfort zone.

Re:The story of the 1968 “Fuck the Draft” poster by rconti on Friday October 20, 2017 @07:38PM (#15519832)
Seconded. I just finished it. PBS only had the first 4-6 episodes "free" on the AppleTV app (and I assume other streaming methods) but I had recorded all 10 on my DVR. I should have paid my local affiliate the $60 to get PBS Passport so I could watch the whole thing uncensored -- so if you want to see it and haven't yet, or don't have an antenna, or whatever, check to see if you can get PBS Passport access with a donation. The Blu-Ray is $130 so this is a much cheaper option.

In some ways the documentary made me feel better about today's America; they survived, so can we. The parallels between the Nixon administration (and, frankly, the pro-war coverup parts of the Kennedy and Johnson administrations) and today's administration are just amazing. On the other hand, it makes me sad to realize how much of today's mindsets are unchanged knee-jerk leftovers from that era. My dad is a Vet, and was actually on a carrier in the Gulf of Tonkin during the incident; fortunately his active duty service was complete shortly thereafter. He later came to realize the war made no sense, but I'm sure that many of the things the anti-war folks said would still hurt to this day. He's also had friends he served with who he's lost friendships with because they can't accept that someone could go from being in the military to being skeptical of these kinds of foreign interventions, and that the government isn't always right.

One thing I found really interesting was how well-received Americans are in Vietnam. Maybe it helps that communism ultimately fell apart so it seemed like we were 'right' all along, and looking out for their best interests-- but of course it wasn't their interests we cared about, and communism would have fallen apart on its own, likely without millions of deaths, if we hadn't gotten involved.

Re:The story of the 1968 “Fuck the Draft” poster by thaumasiotes on Saturday October 21, 2017 @12:55AM (#15520747)
> communism would have fallen apart on its own, likely without millions of deaths, if we hadn't gotten involved

Communism caused more deaths where we weren't involved than where we were.

This is confounded; the areas where we had no influence had much larger populations. But it is indisputable that if we hadn't gotten involved at all, communism would still have caused many millions of deaths.

Re:The story of the 1968 “Fuck the Draft” poster by shouldbew0rking on Saturday October 21, 2017 @05:00AM (#15521225)
I like to daydream that Chile would've been a superpower had we not overthrown Allende