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Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by pdog on Friday October 13, 2017 @10:54AM (#15466234)
Would you rather own all of Bitcoin (current market cap: $100B) or all of a company with $10B in annual operating income? If it's the former, why?
Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by chanfest22 on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:46AM (#15466659)
As more people own Bitcoin, the value of Bitcoin goes up as the value of the network increases. As the network becomes more mainstream, more people start questioning why there needs to be a centralized investment bank making $10B in annual operating income.
Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by patio11 on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:57AM (#15466743)
Is there a particular line of business of Goldman Sachs that you believe is either vulnerable to people's opinions of it as non-competitive with Bitcoin or factually imperiled by the existence of Bitcoin a technology?
Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by chanfest22 on Friday October 13, 2017 @06:54PM (#15469733)
I don't have an investment banking background and I'm not a financial services expert, but it does seem services related to raising capital (e.g., underwriting securities, assisting with IPOs, etc.) may not be as valuable with alternative options such as raising financial capital through token sales.
Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by kasey_junk on Friday October 13, 2017 @02:15PM (#15468037)
What is it you think Investment Banks do?
Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by chanfest22 on Friday October 13, 2017 @06:50PM (#15469721)
As far as I can tell, investment banks offer a variety of financial services such as assisting with M&A, trading derivatives, underwriting securities, etc.

What is unclear to me is how many of these financial services (e.g., assisting with stock transfer, IPOs, raising capital, etc.) will continue to thrive in the same way that they have been, mostly unchanged for the past several years, when they can be executed in cheaper, more efficient, decentralized marketplace.

I'd love to expand my understand and be proven wrong though so I welcome feedback on this line of thinking.

Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by kasey_junk on Sunday October 15, 2017 @10:43AM (#15477296)
Just using your initial list how does the blockchain help with M&A? The role of investment bankers in that aspect is to do research. Due diligence, pricing, etc (as well as specialized finance at times).

Or trading derivatives? Derivatives are either traded on extremely efficient exchanges already (the automation of which put a squeeze on IB profits) or are for very bespoke products. I suppose in this area you can come up with a process for making the bespoke products more efficient via the blockchain but the actual ledger on those things isn't the hard part, its the contracts and risk pricing. Even then, the banks customers seem likely to continue to go to them for the expertise in the bespoke products.

For underwriting securities its not clear how the blockchain makes transactions less risky? Again the mechanics of the ledger are fairly easy and efficient already. I suppose there is room for improvement, but the thing people are going to the IB for, and what generates their profits in this area is actually taking on the risk, which the blockchain does not mitigate.

Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by chanfest22 on Thursday October 19, 2017 @08:12PM (#15512628)
I think you make some very valid points. To be clear my view isn't that blockchain is going to make banks obsolete (this blog post sums that up pretty well: https://blog.chain.com/a-letter-to-jamie-dimon-de89d417cb80). For example, certain activities that you mention, like M&A, are not going to be easily improved by just introducing a blockchain.

What a blockchain is useful for is eliminating the need for a centralized, trusted third party. Where I could see this being very helpful, and a potentially disruptive force is in areas like IPOs, mitigating counterparty risk, reducing conflict of interests, etc.

For example, if companies can raise capital and create liquidity for themselves with ICOs, the demand for IPOs will decrease. If investment banks break the "Chinese" wall and engage in market manipulation, then having public companies put their accounting on a public ledger will reduce the dependence on quarterly earnings reports. If more players are able to access the financial systems because they are on public ledgers rather than private ones, it will make it harder to banks to engage in oligopolistic behavior.

None of these things are guaranteed to happen, and certainly they won't all happen overnight. I do see though, the potential for these types of changes to slowly chip away at some of the revenue streams that banks have enjoyed for a long time.

Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by twohlix_ on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:18PM (#15466956)
If a single entity owned all BTC produced it would be largely worthless. There would also be no speculative value in it as no one would have any horse in the race. The value of BTC is driven by the network of BTC and its ability to be used in transactions as well as a speculative instrument.

Given that, If your question is altered to somehow own all of it while keeping its value, i'd rather the 100B easily liquidated assets over 10B revenue yoy.

Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by ringaroundthetx on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:40AM (#15466610)
I would rather own all Bitcoin, and sell a tiny fraction to people that want to transact in it, letting the market determine the price of that tiny float and slowly dilute based on demand.

I would also invest into $10B companies with the Bitcoin balance.

This is what you do with illiquid float you control, in any asset class. Whats the real question?

Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by RasputinsBro on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:01AM (#15466291)
I would rather own all of Bitcoin.

I'd sell it tomorrow and make about $1bn in profit and move on with my life.

EDIT: I'm editing this because people are missing the point. My point wasn't about how when 1 owner has absolute control BTC is worthless like this guy[1] seems to think or about the liquidity of BTC, like this guy[2] seems to think. My point was about the fact that the difference between BTC is that the only use it has is holding and hoping it moves up, whereas owning a company actually brings in earnings.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=code-is-code

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jawilson2

Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by code-is-code on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:10AM (#15466370)
If you, a single person, owns all bitcoin, noone would buy a single satoshi from you.
Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by RasputinsBro on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:12AM (#15466388)
Ok, I would own 1/4 of all bitcoin and make only $250m profit tomorrow.

Happy? Do you miss the forest for the trees a lot, or only when you're on HN?

Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by sp527 on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:23AM (#15466486)
You seem to be someone who’s not aware of how thin the liquidity is in crypto markets.
Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by coryl on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:44AM (#15466646)
24 hour volume was $1.25 billion USD. Is that thin for a $250m dump?
Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by michaelbuckbee on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:44AM (#15466640)
Thank you. Is there an economics term or ratio or something that encapsulates this?

In my mind, it's conceptually similar to elastic/inelastic demand curves.

Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by jawilson2 on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:51AM (#15466698)
That isn't how supply and demand and market liquidity works.

This is why institutional traders have to break up buys or sells over many transactions. If you put up a huge block saying "I want to buy/sell $X million / Y million units of instrument Z" it is going to strongly drive the market away from your bid/ask. In a market like BTC, it might drive the price down 50% within minutes.

In other words, who is going to be on the other side of your market? If you are selling 1000 BTC, and if the top bid price has a quantity of 0.1 BTC, you will blow through the first level, then the second, thrid, etc, through dozens of decreasing price levels, if you are doing market orders. You will take out the ENTIRE BUY SIDE OF THE MARKET, and the price of your last transaction will be thousands of dollars lower than the first price. If you are doing a limit order, then you provide the lowest price you are willing to go, so you might only be able to sell a few coins.

Re:Bitcoin Is Now Bigger Than Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley by Cakez0r on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:07PM (#15466824)
You would probably have more success selling off 25% of goldman sachs than 25% of all bitcoin.