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Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by glenstein on Friday October 13, 2017 @10:02AM (#15465731)
>suddenly seem especially inept

As long we we're clear that the thing being labeled as inept is a particular persuasion strategy. It was nevertheless rational from the perspective of a person's political interests to go out and vote, even if they felt confronted, manipulated and taken for granted and any number of other things.

I certainly felt that way by a number of political conversations I had, but tried not to substitute those feelings for the reality of competing policy agendas and their effect on the world, which were the real thing I was voting on.

The tricky part of interrogation and perhaps all forms of persuasion, is connecting human nature on one end, to the need to fix problems in the outside world with some meaningful policy agenda, without losing perspective and letting one substitute for the other.

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by pessimizer on Friday October 13, 2017 @10:07AM (#15465775)
> It was nevertheless rational from the perspective of a person's political interests to go out and vote, even if they felt confronted, manipulated and taken for granted and any number of other things.

Unless they had no faith in either candidate; either the content of their proposed program, or their actual intention of carrying it out. I don't think that the contempt for voters inspires that faith.

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by glenstein on Friday October 13, 2017 @10:22AM (#15465904)
I think the key in your scenario is that a person already has settled substantive beliefs that aren't tilted toward any particular candidate. As long as someone really feels like they can justify their pox-on-both-houses apathy on nuanced policy grounds, that's perfectly fine.

I'm talking about something slightly but importantly different. I'm talking about someone who isn't already settled on those questions, but nevertheless feels that their sense of indignation at having their dinner interrupted by a phone call is more important than who the next supreme court justice is.

There's two failures there- one in the chosen form of interaction, which has no possibility of creating a real connection to a person and doesn't seem to come from a place of caring what they think. That's real and needs to be taken seriously.

But then you have the second failure: of letting this personal desire for validation of one's autonomy become the whole of one's political perspective, at the expense of any consideration of policy outcomes that will affect hundreds of millions of other people.

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by hsod on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:28AM (#15466530)
Thank you for these posts. I have struggled to make this point many times and have never seen it communicated so clearly and neutrally.
Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by Retric on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:36AM (#15466583)
Voting for a 3/4th party candidate is still better than staying home. Voting Libertarian / Green / whatever is not going to change the results, but it is taken into consideration as 'available' voters in a way staying at home does not.
Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by dmix on Friday October 13, 2017 @11:59AM (#15466758)
Considering the insignificance of the vote, if the other party leader doesn't deserve my vote I don't care if they fit my ideology better than the rest, I'm not going to give them or the larger political system any validation. It's about integrity and indifference in the entire system.

The 'everyone should vote' activists so often operate on the assumption that this is the system, it's the only option, and if they can just convince people of the right strategy to work the system they'll be motivated to vote. Without considering a rejection of the system itself and the options the system produced, where discussing individual strategy is a meaningless exercise.

Do better next time, offer better people, and maybe I'll be motivated, or better year propose fixes to the electoral system as part of their campaign. But I've already been burned in Canada where Trudeau made promises to update the electoral system...then he completely backed out of it after being elected. Which does nothing to convince me the utility in taking an active interest. Even if they are offering things I care about, if that comes with zero integrity about following through then again the individual strategy is meaningless.

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by Retric on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:04PM (#15466802)
Votes are not insignificant as winners and losers consider the actual votes not just who won. (ex: When drawing district maps.) Further, even if you dislike all the options for president, congress, local election, etc there are still generally referendums where obtaining is meaningless as they are direct Y/N questions.

Not voting on the other hand accomplishes nothing and convinces the system that you don't matter.

PS: I don't necessarily mind you conceding all your power to other people. I simply object to flawed logic.

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by solonagathon on Friday October 13, 2017 @04:21PM (#15468957)
The act of voting, from an individual perspective, is objectively irrational. Since the chance of your particular vote affecting the outcome of an election is 0 your time and effort is wasted.

The lesser of two (or few) evils argument only applies on a collective level but you are an individual making ab atomized decision, not a collective.

Since your particular vote has no effect on the outcome if you are going to do so anyway you might as well vote for someone you believe in. And if no candidate exists that fits that criteria you are not just wasting your time, you are willingly participating in your own delusion.

Voting is like praying. Both have zero effect on the world, but there are huge structures that rely on maintaining the illusion to the contrary.

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by dmix on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:22PM (#15467010)
> Not voting on the other hand accomplishes nothing and convinces the system that you don't matter.

Once again, these embedded assumptions about the 'system' and my responsibility to it, all under the pretext that it is a system which is capable of significance if only more people, or the right people, took part in it. Reminds me of the cliche definition of 'crazy', expecting different results.

There's plenty of more useful ways to affect the world than that. But by all means, if you think things will be different next time...

And there's a difference between active vs passive involvement. By staying home and not voting I'm not actively negatively affecting the system. My involvement is entirely passive.

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by Retric on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:36PM (#15467181)
I am not trying to convince you to vote. Please feel free to stay home as that's probably better for me than you going out and voting.

Still, to give a specific example: Republicans want to replace the affordable care act. They also want to get elected.

So, let's figure out what explains their actions. People who vote, political donors, or everything else such as people send out angry tweets etc.

PS: It's possible for the 3rd option to be important, but frankly your actions not going to be.

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by dmix on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:44PM (#15467247)
> Republicans want to replace the affordable care act.

And that got rejected in congress unsurprisingly, just like all of his more extreme policies which everyone freaked out about (how's that wall coming?).

The latest executive orders will make a difference but a minor one in the long run. The US government's involvement in the healthcare system is still a super expensive mess.

Despite the intense discourse, billions of dollars spent, countless hours of us vs them, the US isn't much different than a year ago. I'm not saying it all doesn't matter but I'm struggling to see the utility in caring in my short life.

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by Retric on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:53PM (#15467333)
So far trump signed 53 or more bills into law. Now, yes they might not make headlines, but they are very much different laws than if he had lost.

The US does not change quickly. But, just because you stop paying attention does not mean you are not impacted.

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by jpfed on Friday October 13, 2017 @01:29PM (#15467627)
But the election wasn't just about Clinton and Trump; it was just as much about Merrick Garland and Neil Gorsuch. Even if you still don't see a difference between the former two, surely you would recognize a difference between the latter two.
Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by darpa_escapee on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:19PM (#15466978)
Do you think politicians pander and offer concessions to people that are motivated to vote?

Or do you think they spend a majority of their time trying to please non-voters and suss out the particular reason they aren't voting?

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by dmix on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:40PM (#15467213)
I depends, if they follow political consultant focus-group research they'll probably just be hitting up the same voters as last time, with the usual safe party topics.

Which is why I believe Trump (and Sanders) was able to hit up a very cynical voter base, and cross typical party lines, by going totally off the mainstream script. Which may have played a big role in why all of the standard projection models missed their mark so badly. While Clinton was the polar opposite. Which also attracted the 'fuck you' votes against Clinton, even from people indifferent to Trump.

As someone totally disinterested in voting I saw appeal in that, although I'm too much of a logic/rational person to toy with stuff like that.

But there's definitely something deeper there, a deep seated dissatisfaction with the entire system and a voter base not being addressed by standard messaging. Sadly, we're all back to ignoring that fact, blaming Nazis and obsessing over the daily Trump gossip, like celebrity Entertainment Tonight.

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by Retric on Friday October 13, 2017 @12:42PM (#15467232)
Trump got no extra votes, Hillary simply drummed up less support. Voter turnout actually declined signficantly.

"he got fewer votes than Mitt Romney in 2012, fewer votes than John McCain in 2008, and fewer votes than George W. Bush in 2004." This despite the growing US population.

Republican candidate got: 2004 62 million votes, 2008 60.0 million votes, 2012 60.9 million votes, 2016 59.7 million votes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2016/11/10...

"She got 6 million fewer votes than Barack Obama did in 2012, and nearly 10 million fewer than he did in 2008"

Re:Two scientists quietly revolutionising the study and prac... by dmix on Friday October 13, 2017 @01:30PM (#15467637)
I was referring to a poll I read showing a notable portion of Trump voters either didn't vote last time or if they did vote it was for Obama in 2012 or 2008. That's all I meant by my comment... not that he had some new big number of voters?

It's been well covered in the press Trump got less votes than a number of presidents in the past, which only contributes to my general point.