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Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by dkrich on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:26PM (#15444627)
Yes, this to me was the most telling part:

That chicken is a confit (with duck fat, aka $$), then served with a stock/stew that takes days (of labor dollars) to prepare, plus cost of employees to serve, stuff to serve it on and rent to pay, not to mention the utilities (the water bills on that cursed grease trap were the opposite of "the gift that keeps on giving"). That damned chicken should be $40! But people won't pay $40 for chicken, so it's $29.

This seems to suggest that the author (who I sympathize with very much) doesn't have much understanding of cost accounting, and therefore pricing, which is near the top of mistakes inexperienced business owners make. The cost of the chicken is variable. The costs of rent, labor, and utilities are fixed on a per plate basis.

I'm friends with the owner of a very large and very successful restaurant and he once told me that he basically makes no profit on food and that the food is just a way to get people in to sell alcohol which is where the majority of his profit is made. It's also true that some foods are necessarily more profitable than others. People won't pay your costs for the chicken confit and you lose a few bucks on every one that goes out? Fine, add a few dollars to your pasta dish that costs far less to make and if you sell the same number you're even. Or, if the chicken isn't profitable and you aren't selling many of them, just accept that people don't want it and take it off the menu.

Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by joezydeco on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:44PM (#15444778)
...he basically makes no profit on food and that the food is just a way to get people in to sell alcohol which is where the majority of his profit is made...

Swap "alcohol" for "soft drinks" and you're pretty much describing the entire fast-food industry.

Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by jorvi on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @09:19AM (#15449470)
No way that McDonalds is selling Big Macs or French fries at cost. Do you really think it costs McDonalds nearly €2 to serve you an order of fries? Or nearly €4 for a Big Mac.
Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by dkrich on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @11:24AM (#15450494)
McDonalds operates at a larger scale than any other restaurant in the world and by a very large margin. What works for McDonalds won't work for restaurants that must order supplies on a much smaller scale.

Also, in McDonalds' early days they didn't have the leverage over suppliers that they wield now, so its food costs have come down by orders of magnitude. This reminds me of something my cost accounting professor told me- to get to large scale businesses have to price items as if they are already at large scale. If you buy a stamping machine that cost $1 million capable of maximum output of 100,000 units, but currently only have sales of 5,000 units, do you price each unit at 1,000,000/5,000 or 1,000,000/100,000? If you opt for the former, you'll never get to maximum output because customers won't be able to afford your prices.

Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by joezydeco on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @10:23AM (#15449972)
Given labor costs, packaging/disposables, energy (freezer, grill, holding cabinet, environmental, ventilation), franchise percentages, real estate lease, shrinkage/waste, promotional discounts/combo meals...yes. It comes very close.
Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by kazinator on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:22PM (#15446349)
You have to be a very clever restaurateur to get away with $29+ entrees. This is not something you just plunge into on a whim.

They should just have made darned turkey sandwiches or something. Charge 25 cents less than similar ones in a two mile radius. If everyone is asking $7, make yours $6.75.

Have an espresso machine and great coffee.

Don't hire any outsiders until business outpaces your sandwich-fu.

Encourage take-out and phone-in orders (or online). Take-out people don't take up seats and you don't have to do dishes after them or clean the table.

Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by philippoi on Friday October 13, 2017 @03:07PM (#15468439)
Don't know what coffee roaster(s) they were getting their beans from, but pictures show a Synesso espresso machine. Given it's Portland, that's probably not as remarkable as it would be in other restaurant/bars around the country.
Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by pdimitar on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @03:28PM (#15452643)
Without having any experience in the area or knowing owners, this has been my exact assumption.

In a restaurant me and my girlfriend frequent, the main dishes are actually VERY affordable -- I'd even say cheap -- for what they offer. And many people flock to the restaurant in lunch breaks, but they are very careful to only order a beer plus a main dish.

Why? Because that restaurant's every single drink -- alcoholic or not -- is grossly overpriced. Desserts cost an arm and a leg. Salads are mostly okay but they most likely sell them for 3x the price of the ingredients as well.

The way I see modern restaurants is exactly like you said: food is just a bait so you can get in and buy the things that go with it, and they are the real profit makers.

I am perfectly okay with it. It was just an interesting revelation and I decided to chime in and thank you for confirming my observations.

Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by nathan_f77 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:42PM (#15444758)
It's a strange concept to have loss-leaders in a restaurant. If I were starting a restaurant, I would probably just want to sell everything at a profit. I don't have a burning desire to pay people to eat my food.
Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by dkrich on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:58PM (#15444871)
It seems counterintuitive to me too, but when you think about it it makes sense.

If you sell burgers, the food costs are pretty high. After all, good hamburger meat, cheese, and whatever else you are going to put in it is pretty expensive. If you charge your costs plus some fixed percentage to ensure profitability on every item, but your customers are used to buying burgers at similar places that charge for the food at cost and make their profits on french fries and drinks, you will quickly earn the reputation of being overpriced. If you can earn some sort of adoration that drives people to your place regardless of price, like Shake Shack or In N' Out, then you have the luxury of charging a bit more, but that's hard to achieve.

Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by marak830 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @04:03PM (#15444907)
Side note: burgers are actually quite cheap to make (even top of the line burgers: eg waygu pattie, day fresh iceberg lettuce, Roma tomatoes and a good in-house made sauce will have a cost of less than $4 unless you are screwing up your ordering), it's the incidentals that will actually cost most of the income. (I have a post lower explaining more, but basically food should never cost more than 25% of your total sales price)

Adoration of customers is a nice theory. Never holds up in reality though. Those customrs go there because they know the quality and quantity for the price, and know that every time it will match that. If you have any doubt in that point, watch what happens to any chain that begins to serve lower quality or inconsistent quality food.

There is customer comfort from repition, but even a moss covered stone can be moved for a good reason. Customers arnt moss covered stones though, they will try something new and if the price/quality point is better, they will move.

Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by NaOH on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:05PM (#15446271)
>...food should never cost more than 25% of your total sales price)

I'm in the food industry, and this pervasive food-cost mentality is one of the things I think people often do unwisely.

Here's a simple example with made-up numbers: The burger ingredients are $2.50 and the burger sells for $10. There's a 25% food cost. The filet of beef tenderloin costs $10 and sells for $25. The food cost is 40%.

Focusing on food cost means the burger is a better item for the restaurant. But I'd take the 40% food cost instead of the 25% food cost and then net $15 instead of $7.50. A percentage means nothing compared to cash in hand. That's nothing groundbreaking to say, but that discrepancy is often lost on food-industry people because they focus too much on the food-cost percentage.

Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by marak830 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:22PM (#15446346)
Side note: if your paying that much for beef for a burger portion, your getting ripped off.

Look the basic principle is: 25% to each: food, staff, facility, profit. Now all experienced managers know that profit is a variable.

The point being, never sell for under, unless you can guarantee an over. Which is difficult to say the least. Yes, if you have gaming section and can rip off your customers from there, go ahead (nb: this is why I never working in venues with gaming facilities). If you have an amazing wine selection or just plain know your clients are going to order great pricepoint wine? Well, just be careful.

Otherwise, you better be selling a lot of overpriced stock with low staffing rates, otherwise son, your going to come undone(as was put to me during training).

Look, all rules are made to be broken, but there are reasons why there are general rules of thumb. At %40, how are your staff doing, with all that running. Is the service good enough? Is your kitchen overstressed? Maybe no, if so - I'm happy for you, but do you think every place can run at %40?

Focusing on costs is the main thing. If you don't, you will find yourself in water deeper than you can handle one day. I'm happy that you can run at %40, I just hope it doesn't go over your head before you realise.

Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by NaOH on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:54PM (#15446519)
I think we disagree that focusing on costs is the main thing. Figuring out what to charge is something I find easy—it's largely a one-time exercise for items—but executing on product excellence and even better service is where I put much more of my time and energy. More specifically, I simplify my employees' work down to five categories:

Great products

Even better customer service

Safety

Sanitation

Organization

I've set our rates so that staff can focus on those listed areas instead of sweating every cent, a common industry behavior which I think inhibits the customer experience and leads to lower-quality products. Certainly, costs matter (to me and to employees), but I want their focus to be on what they make and servicing our customers, and I'll do the bulk of the the economics. So far, for my food business as a wholesaler, that's worked.

Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by marak830 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @09:21PM (#15446629)
I don't actually disagree with anything you have said there.

I was talking from a cost management point of view. If you would like to talk more about this(we're almost at the end of hn's threads haha), check my profile for my email :-) I'm guessing you're in the us(most hners are), so I can't exactly visit your place, but I would if I could :-)

Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by dkrich on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @06:01PM (#15445683)
Customer adoration is earned through consistency and branding. Not sure we're disagreeing. If Chick fil a suddenly started selling low grade meat they would surely lose their adoration but it's also true that there isn't a years long waiting list to open a Chick fil a franchise just because they're consistent.
Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by marak830 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @06:33PM (#15445884)
I do agree with you, I just want to point out that it is a lot more ficle than tech. One bad service can ruin your reputation. No one forgets a bad meal, and a whole table with bad meals is a death knell
Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by nunez on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:06PM (#15446272)
It kind of does. Most people come for the food and stay for the drinks, and it’s a lot easier to charge “a lot” for a drink (liquor, not beer) than it is for food because the number is smaller and people like small numbers.
Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by mhb on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @03:57PM (#15444859)
It's no stranger than paying them with the use of your room, utensils, plates, tables, etc. to eat your food. The different menu items are fungible just like all the other costs.
Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by nunez on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @08:04PM (#15446268)
Does that mean that the reason for steakhouses charging $55 for a porterhouse are doing so to justify $300 bottles of wine?
Re:What happened when I opened a restaurant in Portland by dkrich on Wednesday October 11, 2017 @11:15AM (#15450425)
To a large extent, yes. Fresh steak and seafood are among the most expensive items to obtain and prepare. The markup on a prime cut of steak will be much smaller than alcohol. Not zero, but definitely less than alcohol.

Anecdotally, I recently went to one of the top steakhouses in my city with my girlfriend for her birthday. We ordered a filet, some crab legs, some prawns, and a few sides. With the meal we had two martinis each. The four martinis accounted for about 20% of the bill but six ounces of Ketel One probably accounted for a few dollars of costs to the restaurant plus some Olive Juice so those drinks were nearly all profit in terms of variable costs. I'm sure there was a healthy profit on the food, but far less than the drinks.

To put it another way, most restaurants that serve alcohol would not be able to survive without alcohol sales with their current food prices.