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Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by burnte on Monday October 09, 2017 @01:37PM (#15435810)
It was their game to lose ten years ago, but only barely and not recently. In 2007 when the iPhone was launched, Windows Mobile had about 40% of the smartphone market, RIM had about 20%. But the smartphone market was nothing compared to today, the vast majority of phones were feature phones. Nokia's array of candybar phones absolutely dominated in 2007, with the Moto Razr was still big. Then Apple unveiled the iPhone, and the guys at Android said, "Oh shit." Meanwhile Steve Ballmer said the iPhone would never succeed. Ballmer drove MS into the ground. Everyone pivoted to the iPhone model except MS, who spit out WinMo 6.5 in 2009, and finally WinMo 7 in 2010. By 2010, the race was pretty much over. The rest of what MS did was half-assed at best.

You're 100% right, MS beat MS.

Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by digi_owl on Monday October 09, 2017 @02:20PM (#15436177)
And frankly Winmo 7 was the bad move, not 6.5.

Because 7 burned the app bridge with 6.5, thus making it ever easier for someone to justify moving to a different platform.

Never mind that at launch iphone was more fancy featurephone than smartphone.

Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by smitherfield on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:21PM (#15436641)
> Never mind that at launch iphone was more fancy featurephone than smartphone.

Not really. iPhone was the first phone ever that shipped with a real, full-featured, non-crippled web browser. This was an astonishing achievement at the time, and one which made its existing competition look like "fancy featurephones," not the reverse. (Really an astonishing achievement period, considering it had 128MB of RAM).

Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by amigoingtodie on Monday October 09, 2017 @07:05PM (#15438150)
But no 3rd party apps. That was an after thought.
Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by burnte on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @02:36AM (#15439836)
Absolutely not, it was added on after, but no, that was the plan all along. You don't build that in just a year. That was part of the plan all along, but why waste millions of dollars on an app ecosystem before the phone itself is proven? No, you start with an amazing minimum viable product, see if it succeeds, and if so, you recoup lots of R&D money, and pour that into building the app system you already planned out. Yes, Jobs talked about web-apps and such, but that was just cover.

Yes, Walter Isaacson said that others tried to convince Steve about apps at launch, but from the moment he started talking about web apps on that stage in 2007, I never believed for a moment it was really the angle. I knew a couple folks who worked on the first couple revs of iOS, installable apps were always possible, if underdeveloped, from day one. Jobs had lots of resources at Apple in the 80s, and frittered them away on the Lisa and Apple III. He stumbled on Pixar, not knowing where it would go, and had a hell of a time figuring out how to position NeXT, but all those failures taught him that in business, like in art (and we know he felt himself an artist), making the most within the constraints of the medium is they key to success. He came back to Apple on its deathbed. He negotiated with MS for a transfusion to stay alive, and knew even though OS9 sucked, they needed a splash. They had the iMac. Pare down a personal computer to what was needed at the time. Monitor, modem/ethernet, CD drive. No need for a floppy, they're dying, chuck it for an external one you can charge for. No need to pack it with a super spiffy CPU or oodles of RAM, people can pay for an upgrade. Just make it slick looking and work well. Same with the iPod. Pimp it out with upgrades later, after the MVP proves its worth. The G4 cube failed, it never was really iterated on.

He learned from Microsoft, create a MVP, if it seems to catch on, iterate fast.

Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by chrisco255 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @02:27AM (#15439797)
> But no 3rd party apps. That was an after thought.

Barely any platform had 3rd party apps. No one had a streamlined app store, SDK and monetization process like iOS came out with in 2008.

Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by fdchn2016 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @12:16PM (#15442992)
Palm Had. I was a fool not to try and develop a 3rd party app for it. I had a Palm.
Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by v-yadli on Monday October 09, 2017 @04:00PM (#15436968)
http://mobilehtml5.org/ I'm interested in how you would define full-featured. Please check the symbian & opera columns. Also, iOS 1.0 ships with Safari3.0, not Safari3.1.1 in this test.

In iOS 2.0 they introduced a new feature that allows you to save web pictures to Photos. Full-feature redefined. :)

Edit: a full-featured television indeed, by Alan Kay's definition: https://www.fastcompany.com/40435064/what-alan-kay-thinks-ab...

Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by smitherfield on Monday October 09, 2017 @04:18PM (#15437117)
I mean full-featured in the sense of end user experience. If you have any example prior to 2007 of a mobile browser rendering the full New York Times website perfectly,[1] I'm all ears. But as I remember the below link was, for good reason, the biggest "wow" moment of any demo Steve Jobs ever gave.

[1] https://youtu.be/RIRQg8AJxuw?t=41m24s

Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by v-yadli on Monday October 09, 2017 @05:52PM (#15437787)
I partially agree with you, in that the rendering of the page is good-looking in circa 2007 standard on a mobile device. But rendering one page nicely does not prove it is full-featured. It has to go through some kind of benchmark, which reflects the general ability to process trillions of other pages out there. It loses to Opera Mobile or Symbian browser on the test I just googled (not sure about how accurate it is though).

A full-fledged browser experience in 2007 to me means at least I could have mouse hover, to deal with sites not yet adapting to mobile computing (there were a lot of them). WM6 browsers did that. If it fails, I'd go and use my Palm device to VNC into my workstation -- a 2004 Sony device that will be up-to-date forever because it is a decent thin client.

I also remember opera mini being a very handy browser on lower end phones like the S40 models. Since the first iOS safari does not do javascript IIRC, it makes no difference if the rendering is done with WebKit locally, or pre-computed on a server. The only difference is that iPhone has a bigger viewport, which allows you to consider the webpage a minified version of the desktop rendering -- and you are able to freely swipe, zoom, rotate -- not relating to the functionality of the browser itself. I'm not sure if you would agree, but I think, if iPhone1 runs Opera Mobile (with beefy 128MB RAM and fancy graphics chip), it beats the built-in Safari to the ground.

Of course it will cause other troubles -- battery life, thermal management, slow startup, or even unstability etc. This is, to my understanding, why Apple decided to ship a "reduced" version of Safari3.

Edit: adding explainations.

Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by chrisco255 on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @02:30AM (#15439814)
Screw mouse hover. iOS had the mind blowing pinch to zoom feature which made full page websites actually readable on mobile. They didn't even have to wait for mobile friendly. If you tried browsing the web on any phone pre-iOS it was a shit experience fraught with frustration.
Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by v-yadli on Tuesday October 10, 2017 @12:43PM (#15443230)
Exactly. I was referring to exactly this, that it is the awesome interaction methods that made it work, not the browser itself.
Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by smitherfield on Monday October 09, 2017 @06:09PM (#15437872)
iOS Safari has always supported Javascript and was never "reduced" in any meaningful way (that's the point of Jobs' demo) except that (as now) it didn't support Flash, and deliberately ignored onmouseover, :hover and other such features that don't work well with a touchscreen interface.
Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by chungy on Monday October 09, 2017 @03:36PM (#15436772)
I assume the iphone was "more fancy featurephone" due to the lack of 3rd party apps?

I would have to disagree with that statement. Windows Mobile and BlackBerry allowed 3rd party apps to be installed, but they were both difficult to find and didn't usually add anything beneficial to the phones at the time. Users, for the most part, stuck to what was installed on the phone and that was it. Smartphones were defined by the fact they had an email client and a (relative to the time) high-resolution screen to read and write emails on.

It was a different market in 2007. The idea that a successful smartphone required an app ecosystem was unheard of.

Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by pedasmith on Monday October 09, 2017 @05:17PM (#15437541)
I worked for a company in 2006 that was considering writing phone apps (we already had a bunch of Windows apps). At the time, each phone company wanted to "curate" the apps for their own phone stores. At least one company wanted, for each $10 app, about $11 of revenue. The result: we decided that it would be essentially impossible to ever make money from phone apps.

What the iPhone did was genius: they created demand for the phone, but would only sell through phone companies willing to let Apple control the app market. That made all the difference: all of sudden, a developer could make an app and have it show up to bazillions of people.

[disclaimer: I currently work for Microsoft, but not in the phone team. But I do have apps in the Microsoft app store!]

Re:Microsoft gives up on Windows 10 Mobile by xorcist on Monday October 09, 2017 @04:46PM (#15437320)
Don't confuse the lack of modern mobile apps with any mobile apps. There was a thriving ecosystem around mobile apps at the time. Not only Windows Mobile and Blackberry but Symbian too, which I believe was the largest, and Treo.

There were many companies living on this stuff. Mobile data was still very expensive, which didn't change for a few more years, and touchscreens were small and crappy. So the market was mostly business logic and CRM apps because they were the ones that could afford it.

That changed when mobile data and big screens became cheap enough for consumers, but I think Apple was as confused about that as everyone else given the state of early iPhones.