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Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by BoiledCabbage on Monday October 02, 2017 @03:43PM (#15387262)
I'll repost the same comment I made previously on an Etherium thread. I think We're really under appreciating the pandora's box we've opened. Energy is one of the most important items for societal progress. And the fact we've now designed an industry to get rich quick for throwing it away is a societal burden we'll never get rid of.

> Almost all of society functions on energy, some of the largest breakthroughs in society have been on sudden abundance of cheap energy and the machines, vehicles products they can create.

Entire economies can be crippled by rising costs in energy (oil shocks of the 70s) and boom by sudden drops in cost of energy.

So we've created an "industry" where you are essentially paid by comverting energy to waste. Paid to perform extremely intense difficult (ie wasteful) operations to back a useful technology (digital currency).

Assuming it catches on, energy will never be cheap, there will always be a higher floor now due to options for "mining". As we get better at it and it becomes less wasteful, the digital system will simply raise the reward so people are incentivised to once again waste it.

Ignore the short term for the moment, and which ever currency you're backing. We've created a long term societal motivation/reward to harvest every joule produce by the sun and use it to calculate hashes. I'm not talking about the next decade obviously, but we have incentivised that behavior.

If there is anything technologists should understand is that whatever your beautiful perfect technology is, it will instead be used based on whatever has been incentivised.

Regardless of the technology it powers, this is a terrible societal incentive - and one that will be around a lot longer than people are considering.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by buttershakes on Monday October 02, 2017 @03:54PM (#15387351)
I think this is incredibly overblown. How much does the existing financial system cost to operate? How much do ATMs, Private financial networks, money security, transportation, staff, legal, etc, etc. Comparing per transaction cost does not even begin to account for the energy costs of the current financial system. Even with the escalating cost of mining we are getting a deal compared to the way things are now. Hopefully research will yield significantly better incentive structures than pure proof-of-work, but in the mean time it has proven to be remarkably effective.
Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:31PM (#15387663)
> Comparing per transaction cost does not even begin to account for the energy costs of the current financial system

Finance is about 7.3% of U.S. GDP [1]. The U.S. produces about 1,000 gigawatts of energy per year [2]. A first-order estimation thus yields 73 Gigawatts for finance. So about 150 times Bitcoin’s 500 megawatts.

About $700 million of BTC change hands every day [3]. That’s $250 billion a year. U.S. non-cash transaction volume is like $180 trillion a year [4]. So about 720 times the size of the Bitcoin economy.

Bitcoin thus appears about 5 times less efficient than the non-cash status quo. Given finance is less energy intensive than most of the U.S. economy, this is likely a lower-bound estimate.

[1] https://www.selectusa.gov/financial-services-industry-united...

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_of_the_Un...

[3] https://www.quandl.com/data/BCHAIN/ETRVU-Bitcoin-Estimated-T...

[4] https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/press/other/2016-p...

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by whytaka on Monday October 02, 2017 @05:12PM (#15388009)
I think the biggest cost to sustaining fiat is the power of the sovereign that backs it up. To a good extend, you have to also account for the military that secures the borders as that which also supports the currency.
Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by JumpCrisscross on Monday October 02, 2017 @06:36PM (#15388569)
> the biggest cost to sustaining fiat is the power of the sovereign that backs it up

That government and military also safeguards a lot of the economy any financial system, traditional or crypto currency, needs to drive it. In any case, sovereign-less free banking happened [1]. It was replaced for reasons of efficiency.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_banking

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by kamaal on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @06:45AM (#15391460)
That will be true for cryptocurrencies too. What special loyalty does some thing like bitcoin command?

The day bitcoin has its top 1% people(By many a definition they are already there) you will need a military to force it on the people, else they can start their own currency turning the value of existing cryptocurrencies to 0.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by buttershakes on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @08:29PM (#15397414)
Sure, but this doesn't account for how Bitcoin or digital currency actually scales. There isn't any reason that the same proof-of-work couldn't secure an order of magnitude more transaction volume. That kind of throws this analysis into question.
Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by acty1 on Monday October 02, 2017 @10:34PM (#15389689)
We talk about scalability in software where you can support 10x the value or transactions easily.

Bitcoin et al will easily support 10x the value and transactions and make the "but it is 5 times less efficient" argument moot.

Cars were also less efficient than horses at first. Maybe cars were a huge waste of energy and should have stuck with animal power.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by nnfy on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:39PM (#15387732)
You simply cannot justify that first order approximation. There is no reason so believe that the financial industry takes power in proportion to it's relative size of GDP. In fact I would expect the financial industry to require a higher proportion of power to keep servers/ATMs/staff computers running.
Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by matthewowen on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:54PM (#15387875)
this seems... unlikely, given that (eg) factories exist.
Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by TheDong on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:53PM (#15387865)
Bitcoin's power use is proportional to its worth however.

If bitcoin has 300 trillion worth of transactoins, that means being able to mount a 51% attack on the network has a value in the trillions..

Therefore, if you're using less than trillions of dollars of energy to secure it, someone will mount an attack.

The more valuable the bitcoin network is, the more incentive there is to attack it and the more energy must be wasted.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by hwayne on Monday October 02, 2017 @05:12PM (#15388000)
> How much does the existing financial system cost to operate? How much do ATMs, Private financial networks, money security, transportation, staff, legal, etc, etc. Comparing per transaction cost does not even begin to account for the energy costs of the current financial system.

The current financial system does things besides verify transactions.

- Need to get a loan, a line of credit, or just a safe third party to hold your bitcoin so that you're not carrying around your life savings in your pocket? Banks.

- Want to buy cats with your bitcoin but your cat dealer only accepts bitcoin cash? Exchanges.

- Want to do any kind of business in commodities? Now you've got derivatives, and you'll definitely want lawyers.

- Want to make any kind of investment? Now you've got everything.

The actual transferring of money only makes up a tiny fraction of the services in our financial system, and none of the rest of the stuff goes away just because you changed the type of money.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by menacingly on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:32PM (#15387682)
But the point is those energy uses are incidental, as opposed to a cleverly-designed race of burn being intrinsic to mining, right?

I can see the argument that "waste" is the wrong word, since it is producing value, but it's worth putting thought into.

We as a race are really good at only considering the downsides of something once we've deployed it at irreversible scale

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by nnfy on Monday October 02, 2017 @05:08PM (#15387964)
>We as a race are really good at only considering the downsides of something once we've deployed it at irreversible scale

That's a little pessimistic, I think. Some problems simply do not become apparent and are difficult to anticipate prior to a certain minimal scale. This IMO isn't an issue with humans in general, our resources are limited in the design phase. There is only so much we can anticipate-and how often do you hear about large scale successes with the same magnitude of emotionally loaded reporting that you get with large scale disasters?

The fact that mining requires energy is not any different from literally any other action human beings perform to transact value. Bitcoin is just much closer to a pure exchange of information (which is all that value transfer really is) and so it's easier I think to stop and say "look at all those computers wasting energy doing nothing!" Since you typically see other "necessary" uses of power in non BTC transactions.

Not to mention the various solutions that could substantially improve BTC efficiency in the way of both hardware and software (e.g. asics). The fact that the BTC network is energy intensive is not as big of a hit against BTC overall as people seem to be making it out to be.

Not to mention that everyone is screaming about the energy use without considering both cost and benefit.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by thadjo on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:33PM (#15387685)
Not to sound like a free market idealist here, but don't market forces keep this in check?

In general, miners won't mine unless there is a financial incentive to do so. as Bitcoin matures, that financial incentive maps closely to an overall demand for a store of value (plus the nifty features of crypto).

I would see your point more clearly if miners really were wasting energy–using energy to calculate hashes that weren't financially valuable–but I don't see that happening right now.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by BoiledCabbage on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @12:09AM (#15390071)
> I would see your point more clearly if miners really were wasting energy–using energy to calculate hashes that weren't financially valuable–but I don't see that happening right now.

For every river you pollute I'll print another $10 bill and hand it to you. Clearly this isn't wasteful because it's financially valuable. /s

This logic doesn't hold up to reason.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by acchow on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:09PM (#15387476)
> We've created a long term societal motivation/reward to harvest every joule produce by the sun and use it to calculate hashes

The blockchain doesn't have the economics to incentivize limitless energy consumption. The upper bound is exactly how much people are willing to pay for the bitcoin you mine.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by nas on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:20PM (#15387559)
Correct. This is the same reason why Proof-of-Stake (PoS) cannot work as people hope. Due to fundamental economics, people will always spend according to the value of the new currency issued by mining. Switching to PoS just means they will spend in some other way in order to get those new coins.

This also means that as the Bitcoin mining reward diminishes, the money "wasted" on energy is going to decrease, unless the transaction fees rise enough to match what the reward was paying. In that case, because people are willing to pay those fees, it seems quite logical that the cost of the mining is providing a value equal to its cost. Otherwise, people would not be paying those fees.

I really don't know if the Bitcoin experiment is going to work but a lot of criticisms of it are based on some really poor logic.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by TheDong on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:58PM (#15387900)
That is not true.

The upper bound is the combination of how much people will pay you for the bitcoins they mine, how much people value being able to transact (transaction fees), and the value of existing held bitcoin.

Since mining is what prevents attackers from stealing bitcoin,the total value of all bitcoin in existence actually has a bearing in this.

If no one were transacting and no coins were rewarded for mining, people would still mine just so that their existing coins remain secure.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by brulez on Monday October 02, 2017 @08:27PM (#15389088)
Something like bitcoin may actually result in lower overall energy costs by providing a guaranteed base level of income for new power generation.

Building a new plant is much less risky if there is guaranteed off-peak demand. New plants also tend to me more environmentally friendly.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by sillysaurus3 on Monday October 02, 2017 @03:49PM (#15387306)
If Bitcoin reaches a 2 trillion market cap, it will require less than 1% additional world energy output.

Is less than 1% additional energy usage worth a 2 trillion cap? Well, I'm sure people can find a way to argue that it's not, but the point is that bitcoin isn't this enormous threat to energy usage that people try to argue it is.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by kllrnohj on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:17PM (#15387539)
Market cap is a bad metric. A better one would be transactions.

According to https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption bitcoin is on track to consume 19 TWh this year. That puts it at .1% of the global power consumption already

NASDAQ does 10 million trades a day, roughly. So if bitcoin scales to just handle NASDAQ alone it would consume ~850 TWh/year, which is 3.5% of the total world's electricity generation (to say nothing of Visa's 150 million transactions a day)

The reason bitcoin isn't currently an enormous threat is because it's basically barely used by comparison. 300,000 trades/day is a tiny number in the world of financial transactions.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by clarkmoody on Monday October 02, 2017 @06:17PM (#15388435)
But that is not how Bitcoin will scale. Rather, transactions will go off-chain.

Edit: mining effort is dominated by difficulty anyway, not throughput.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by kafkaesq on Monday October 02, 2017 @03:53PM (#15387341)
If Bitcoin reaches a 2 trillion market cap, it will require less than 1% additional world energy output.

The key question raised in the parent comment, which your own riposte artfully dodges, is once again - who stands to benefit from this N% increase in global energy usage?

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by uncoder0 on Monday October 02, 2017 @03:58PM (#15387383)
Not the poster but, I assume the beneficiaries are the users of the bitcoin network by the added security from the increases hash-rate/ energy consumption.
Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by sillysaurus3 on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:03PM (#15387425)
Those who hold Bitcoin. If you own 2% of all bitcoin in existence, and BTC reaches 2 trillion, you'll have $40B.

As far as a justification goes, I think that if BTC reaches 2 trillion, it will have gone mainstream. Meaning either existing transactions should become easier, or people find it a good store of value.

This isn't just theoretical. The marijuana industry faces immense hurdles dealing with the traditional financial system, because marijuana is technically still illegal at the federal level. This makes it a nightmare to do any of the normal banking operations we take for granted. Bitcoin sidesteps this problem while also letting you be legal: As long as you declare your taxes properly, Uncle Sam probably won't come knocking.

That's just one example of an industry that benefits. There are many more.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by cjlars on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:01PM (#15387413)
Humanity spends about $6 Trillion on energy annually, so 1% is no small figure [1]. Is a proper crypto-currency worth $60BN in maintenance costs per year? No idea, but it's likely to be more expensive than the alternative of traditional fiat currency. For reference, the federal reserve produces about $70BN in interest fees for taxpayers each year [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption [2] https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-insanely-profitable-federa...

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by danmaz74 on Monday October 02, 2017 @03:56PM (#15387364)
What did you base this 1% estimate on? And also, why 2 trillion, and not more - considering that the total value of the currencies used in the World, by a quick google, is around 80 trillion USD?
Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by loceng on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:55PM (#15387885)
I think an issue competing for top problem relating to these cryptocurrencies is that for security to exist the mining capability must be distributed. In order to protect against this, every nation or person who has interest would need to or should increase their capability in order to try to prevent a takeover.
Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by B1FF_PSUVM on Tuesday October 03, 2017 @05:26AM (#15391197)
> harvest every joule produce by the sun and use it to calculate hashes.

Paperclipping - https://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Paperclip_maximizer

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by solotronics on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:22PM (#15387579)
I don't think this is a real concern. How much electricity is used by movie theaters, arcades, and other entertainment? How much energy is used by mining for gold and silver?
Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by virtuexru on Monday October 02, 2017 @03:56PM (#15387369)
> So we've created an "industry" where you are essentially paid by comverting energy to waste. Paid to perform extremely intense difficult (ie wasteful) operations to back a useful technology (digital currency).

https://hackernoon.com/bitcoin-doesnt-waste-electricity-6496...

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by r2dnb on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:30PM (#15387657)
Not taking side on the issue but this article sort of misses the point. The first half of it is focused on demonstrating that unlike packaged goods, producing electricity does not result in packages needing to be put in the trash which is a fact nobody ever challenged to the best of my knowledge. I never even heard of this interpretation of the waste criticism. But the author goes on and opens the Webster's dictionary at the "Wasteful" page to continue his argument.

The other half is an augmentation of the line that the electricity used for mining is actually used by the mining computer, and very little of it evaporates as heat. Moreover heat inefficiencies are not intended by miners. As a result mining is as legitimate as any other business activity and mining bitcoins should not be considered a waste of energy. While in this case an opponent may possibly exist, I am left unconvinced by this demonstration.

The real discussion is that as of today, the raw materials required to produce electricity are in limited supply and in decreasing amount. Provided this limited supply and this decreasing amount, a structural increase on the demand will result in a pressure on price which may have a negative impact on society and the economy. An other concern is that as of today, efforts are made to decrease energy consumption because energy production has a negative impact on environment with the current state of the art technologies. The waste discussion comes from the fact that the energy footprint of the bitcoin network may seem unnecessary to some since alternatives exist to transfer value.

The author fails to consider the issue from the other side of the table and does not even know who or what he argues against. He misunderstands what the opposing view is. Throughout the article a lot of energy is spent defending positions that nobody ever challenged and this for sure is a waste.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by deadmetheny on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:09PM (#15387475)
>This is very different to electricity, because physical resources are consumed that the consumer did not ask for or need

This entire article is glossing over the fact that the vast majority of electricity produced is from converting a physical resource into the electricity being wasted. Excessive wasteful packaging is stupid, and so is using excessive amounts of power to make Dunning-Krugerrands.

You could certainly place your miners near energy sources such as hydro, solar, or geothermal, but that doesn't change the fact that Bitcoin mining is, by definition, a measure of wasted electricity.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by s73ver_ on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:11PM (#15387497)
From the article: "Whatever use you choose to put the electricity you pay for to, if you are satisfied, then the electricity has not been wasted."

That is far too selfish of a view for the author to take. Electricity is a finite resource; only so much of it can be generated and available at a given time.

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by sillysaurus3 on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:13PM (#15387509)
Selfish or not, it appears that it's going to happen. We're on course for that, anyway.
Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by golemotron on Monday October 02, 2017 @03:59PM (#15387388)
> Entire economies can be crippled by rising costs in energy (oil shocks of the 70s) and boom by sudden drops in cost of energy.

The important thing to know is that the current administration considers energy a top priority [1] so we are well poised to continue building blockchain infrastructure.

[1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/america-first-energy

Re:Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity by JBReefer on Monday October 02, 2017 @04:05PM (#15387445)
People on HN being pro-Trump's energy plan so they can get rich off of Bitcoin. That's really surprising and really sad.

Boiling the ocean for a bit more personal wealth for the top 5% of income earners that make up the userbase of this site is ... a lot.