It's a bit late to answer, but still:

> The first thing is to question the referendum itself: there was no census, there are people from Madrid voting, people voting twice, people inserting 4 votes at once, etc. The percentage of Catalan people voting this probably doesn't even get to 15%. And the people how came to vote were the only the ones who believed this referendum was democratic (99.9% of people who want the independence).

If that's the case, this is really only the fault of Madrid for not allowing the referendum to take place in a calm, reasonable and controlled manner. I don't think you can disrupt an attempt at a democratic process (I know it is debatable, but you can not deny that for many people voting yes, they saw that as a democratic action) and then claim it is invalid because it was disrupted. By organising this disruption, the Spanish state has lost a lost of legitimacy in the minds of people who were already defiant.

It's a clear loss for everyone, and as the force that is legally in charge, the Spanish government is undeniably the one responsible for it.

> This referendum is illegal and unconstitutional. There are millions of public money and public space used in order to carry on with "crime of sedition", using the political force against the law in order to rebel against the institutions.

Since the referendum doesn't have any legal force anyway, why did your government send out cops to use force to keep people away from the polls?

I'm not defending the government here. I agree they over reacted.

Just a couple of things: it was the judicial institutions the ones ordering the repression. And the repression wasn't as big as the international press says, 96% of the schools were opened.

The only two autonomous communities I could see leaving are Catalonia and Basque Country. Madrid, despite being rich, has many more privileges than Catalonia.

What makes you think less than 15% of people voted? Did you by any chance get these numbers from the extremely objective and impartial newspapers abc, el mundo, or la razon?

I don't feel like arguing at 3am, so I will leave it at that, but reading things like our history is null makes me pretty sad.

More privileges? Madrid has a higher gdp per capita but a lower gpd (fewer people), despite of having a lower gdp they contribute with twice the money: http://m.eldiario.es/politica/Madrid-deficit-fiscal-millones... (Leftist source)

What makes me think about the real percentage of people that voted is not any newspaper but things like this: https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016

https://twitter.com/juanmalamet/status/914448261964029957

https://twitter.com/yuyudecai/status/914577981812674566

And finally, I'm very sorry if I offended you, I'm just saying that the difference between someone from Madrid and someone from Barcelona es less than someone from Madrid and Cadiz or many other cities. There is no special identity nor history compared to other regions. Your claiming the crown of Aragon, which was pretty much half of Spain... I don't think you could claim independence just because you belonged to something else (as every region before the formation of Spain) in the past... The only real argument is to say: a lot of people want it. I stated my points on that in my comment.

(I did not downvote you, for the record) Don't feel bad for offending me. I have been getting easily triggered quite a bit lately due to the lack of objectiveness of a lot of the Spanish media (you could say the same about Catalan media). I shouldn't really talk in these threads to be honest.

It's true that Madrid is richer, but they also have, for example, the privilege of being the capital of Spain, which naturally helps with their economy.

Regarding the multiple votes, I could also add that other people tried[1] voting twice and weren't allowed. That is not to say that it wasn't possible at certain places, but I think that stating that less than 15% of the real population voted when the released data said that more than two million IDs were registered electronically is a bit ingenuous. Furthermore, TVE, the Spanish national TV channels, manipulated data and were really biased, as stated by multiple journalists working there[2].

[1] https://twitter.com/orioldebalanzo/status/914526879582998528.

[2] https://twitter.com/vanesabenedicto/status/91448136228718592...

I agree with you on the media being biased (by both sides). But I don't think this should be about the numbers. I only stated that percentage to make clear the point that there was no census and multiple ways to hack the polls...

In any case, my arguments apply wether that percentage is 15 or 50. Also, I believe we shouldn't differentiate between regions that could have the privilege of voting and regions who wouldn't have it (specially when the reasons aren't solid) , it just intensifies the feeling of false superiority and xenophobia between different populations.

I could agree on the possibility of self determination for any region (or city), but I'd like people to think a little bit more about what that could mean in the long term and if that's something good for the world overall.

Sorry again if I was too arrogant, I fully respect your love for your hometown and your people.

I think a lot of non-Catalans have the perception (perhaps portrayed by the media) that we dislike Spain or the people, but frankly, the big issue is that we are fed up with the government (and certain branches of the govt.), probably like a large amount of Spaniards, with the difference being that we are able to express it through the pro-independence movement, which has always existed, though admittedly it had never been close to as strong as it is nowadays, and which allows us to put much more pressure into the govt. for changes. There is no hate at all; we just want the best for our land, like everyone. It's good that parties like Podemos have been growing, even if one doesn't feel identified with their ideals, because it shows that people are fed up with the situation.

Thank you for the kind words. Likewise to you <3.

He said it's null in comparison.

Were it Aragon calling for independence then his comparison would not make sense. But it isn't, is it?

> Also, Catalonia can never be compared with Scotland, their history is null in contrast. Their identity is as special as many other regions of spain.

I’m curious what you mean here, do you mind expanding on your opinion?

Catalonia is and was ever just a region.

The comparison with Scotland would be apt if it were Aragon wanting independence, not a region thereof.

You specifically mention that the comparison with crimea is wrong. And yet all your arguments apply to the crimea (and any other secession) too.