Weird how they do it after they became doctors and not before.

It's actually weird how many people in capitalist countries look at failed/failing communist states and think of them as utopias, all the while ignoring the plight of millions living there in poverty and with no clear path to a better standard of life.

They should put their money where their mouth is and spend at least a few decades in such countries before criticising others who've made a choice to leave(for various reasons).

I am solidly liberal and Left-leaning and most of my friends are extremely liberal and Left-Leaning, too (though, admittedly not extreme left). I don't know a single person who sees any communist state as a utopia or anything approaching utopia. Hell, I don't know anyone who likes communism as a concept any more than a they'd like a state of anarchist primitivism -- basically a quaint idea that might be nice if humans weren't actually human that's interesting to muse about from time to time. Honestly, I think it is a character made up of very few extreme examples that make a spectacle of themselves on social media trotted out by Right-wing pundits and people who don't actually like to think about reality too hard.

So you look at the millions of poor people in the United States and think, "Yes, these people have a clear path to a better standard of living"?

Do you know how many children are living on the streets in Havana? Or how many die of starvation or exposure? Maybe they're poor, but they are alive, healthy, fed, and have a roof over their heads. That's a lot more than Americans can say about the at risk in their own country.

I am by no means suggesting that Cuba is a utopia -- my own standard of living is probably quite a lot higher than the average Cuban's. I'm lucky in that way. That's not the case for many, many others.

How much of that is America's doing? If the embargo were lifted, do you still think Communist Cuba would be failing? Its poverty is a result of America's intolerance for different political systems, not the result of those political systems themselves.

The communist Utopia requires trade with another entity in order to maintain its Utopia? Who manages the trade between the countries? Are the members of a society that claims to be Communist actually so if that society at large is part of a free-market? This sounds like not getting rid of exploitation, but rather sweeping it under the rug and outsourcing it to a free-market entity.

>The communist Utopia requires trade with another entity in order to maintain its Utopia?

Presumably all states do.

>Who manages the trade between the countries?

Communism is about owning the means of production so presumably the people will act through their government to decide on trade.

>Are the members of a society that claims to be Communist actually so if that society at large is part of a free-market?

Presumably, unless you mean to say that no actually Communist state has ever existed! (I'll accept this of course, I'd just like you to say it.) If you'd like to know more about this conflict I'd pull up the wiki article for "socialism in one country."

>This sounds like not getting rid of exploitation, but rather sweeping it under the rug and outsourcing it to a free-market entity.

Well the end-goal would be world communism without government, democratic everything, "from those... to those..." kind of world. In the interim trade would be necessary and you're right that unfortunately that trade may come from exploitation of the working class in another country. But if we can take our country, go socialist, reduce exploitation then that's still an admirable goal. Hopefully, those elsewhere will see and follow. I wouldn't call it "outsourcing exploitation" because presumably the trade level wouldn't increase dramatically after becoming communist. It's more like fixing our exploitation while admitting we may not be able to end all exploitation.

NOTE: I'm not actually a communist and I only know a little so these are the best answers I can give. A real communist would probably school me on this.

So, communism is great, it's just didn't work that one time because of the US?

I think it's just as likely to work as say capitalist country if the US wasn't biased against it. But it's not just that one time, the US has repeatedly intervened in states which underwent revolucion.

Lots of people leave Cuba for America without becoming doctors first.

Tons of Cubans do if before as well. Have you never heard of wet-foot dry-foot?

How many people coming over on makeshift boats do you suppose are doctors?

Yeah no kidding, because they have already acquired skills that will allow them a comfortable lifestyle in the US and don't have to deal with any of the downsides.

Unlikely. Medical degrees from Cuba aren't portable what so ever. Cuban doctors are nowhere close to what Americans expect -- don't get me wrong, they are perfectly fine performing basic medical services but don't expect them to know how to use any modern equipment or be familiar with modern protocols used in the West.

What is it far more likely is that those who actually live the glorious communist future would make an educated choice that being a janitor in America is preferable.

'If they do have to go to the hospital, they must bring their own bedsheets, soap, towels, food, light bulbs — even toilet paper. And basic medications are scarce.'

'In the real Cuba, finding an aspirin can be a chore. And an antibiotic will fetch a fortune on the black market. A nurse spoke to Isabel Vincent of Canada’s National Post. “We have nothing,” said the nurse. “I haven’t seen aspirin in a Cuban store here for more than a year. If you have any pills in your purse, I’ll take them. Even if they have passed their expiry date.”'

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/432680/myth-cuban-heal...

The causality is not obvious. For example, throughout the 70s and 80s, organizations shipping medicine and other supplies to Cuba were regularly bombed or attacked (e.g. Hispania Interamericana). Anti-Castro terrorist organizations (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_66) operated openly in Miami.

So does Cuba lack medicine because they're communist? Or are they communist because the US worked against broad prosperity in Cuba, often very violently and explicitly, for decades before and after Castro?

Even before taking that into account, an embargo with what would otherwise be their most obvious trading partner seems like a big impediment.

There's always Canada, Netherlands, Mexico, Venezuela, Brazil, the west coast of Africa, etc.

Exactly. I never bought that argument. They can trade with everybody else, so that embargo doesn't have much of an impact.

Especially with the rise of containerized shipping. The US gets a lot of stuff from China and ships can get to Cuba for less than it costs to reach any city on the east coast of the US.

It's their rejection of the free market that makes them unable to procure goods in the free market. It's ironic that some people want the free market to serve a system that denies its citizens access to that same exact marketplace. They don't seem to question the ideas they are repeating.

Ok, that was 30 years ago. What's the explanation for why they haven't gotten aspirin to be readily available in the meantime?

Same reason why the "technical debt" never gets fixed... Got to ship features, man!

>Medical degrees from Cuba aren't portable what so ever. Cuban doctors are nowhere close to what Americans expect -- don't get me wrong, they are perfectly fine performing basic medical services but don't expect them to know how to use any modern equipment or be familiar with modern protocols used in the West.

Haha, what? Look up ELAM. There are ELAM educated doctors living and working in the US today.

This bit from the Wikipedia article on the topic is actually quite interesting:

> In June 2000, a US Congressional Black Caucus (CBC) delegation visited Cuba to meet with Castro. Representative Bennie Thompson (D-Miss.) mentioned to Castro that his district had a shortage of doctors; he responded by offering full scholarships for US nationals from Mississippi at ELAM. Later that same June, in a Washington, D.C. meeting with the CBC, the Cuban Minister of Public Health expanded the offer to all districts represented by the CBC. At a September 2000 speech event at Riverside Church, New York City, Castro publicly announced a further expanded offer which was reported as allowing several hundred places at ELAM for medical students from low-income communities from any part of the USA. Reports of the size of this offer varied in the US press: 250 or 500 places were suggested with perhaps half reserved for African-Americans and half for Hispanics and Native Americans. The ELAM offer to US students was classified as a "cultural exchange" program by the US State Department to avoid the restrictions of the U.S. embargo against Cuba. The first intake of US students into ELAM occurred in spring 2001, with 10 enrolling in the pre-medical program.[5][18][20][21]

> In 2004, the legality of the presence of US students at ELAM was threatened by tightened restrictions against travel to Cuba by US nationals under the administration of President George W. Bush. A CBC campaign led by Representatives Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) and Charles Rangel (D-NY) with 27 other members of Congress persuaded Secretary of State Colin Powell to exempt ELAM from the tightened restrictions.[4]

> Applications from US citizens had been administered through the New York City-based Interreligious Foundation for Community Organization (IFCO), headed by human rights activist and critic of the U.S. embargo of Cuba, the Rev. Lucius Walker Jr.[21]

Yes? And? ELAM degree does not allow one to practice medicine in the United States.

While I'm no fan of Cuba, I have to point out doctors come to the US from a lot of different countries because they'll get paid more. That's just human nature.