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Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by eesmith on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:00PM (#15333030)
This is completely counter to the thesis in the article.

For example:

> Looking back from two decades later, Next Generation (1987–94), Deep Space Nine (1993–99), and Voyager (1995–2001) feel like a single continuous 1990’s moment, a moment that began in a renewed liberal optimism for multiculturalism and progress and the general advancement of humanity.

Where is the SJWism and PC culture which saddles the latest ST movies? How did all that SWJism result in Khan Noonien Singh becoming a white guy? Or Kirk switching from being "a stack of books with legs" in the Academy to the womanizer he's become now?

The essay continues:

> Alas, that moment had clearly run out of gas when September of 2001 happened, and when it brought with it the terrible, epoch-shaping tragedy of that year.

I believe your thesis is that the worldview post-9/11 had a less impact than on ST and optimism than the increased SJWism and PC culture you see, yes?

Seems rather far-fetched to me.

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by busterarm on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:38PM (#15333378)
I never really agreed with this tacit assumption everyone makes that ST was this super-progressive show.

If you're really paying attention, and with the exception of DS-9, almost all of the heroes are white and educated (or their sidekicks) and all the villains are dark and barbaric. Seems straight up racist to me.

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by eesmith on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:55PM (#15333546)
Points which are raised in the article, at least somewhat:

> yes, there was diversity on the bridge, but not that much of it, not really. Uhuru was a service worker and Worf was a punching bag; when the show made a black captain, was it a coincidence that the show also became “darker” and less optimistic, when its characters started to be “flawed” and “ambiguous”? Voyager had a female captain, but it marooned her to the farthest reaches of the galaxy (and the less said about the garbage politics of the reboot movies, the better). But the point is this: Star Trek has always wanted to be more progressive than it ever really managed to be, because it wanted its cake and also to eat it. The future was a human race that had perfected itself, but which also felt comfortable—for white men—because not so much had changed. We were still in charge.

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by metaphorm on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:45PM (#15333970)
Romulans are emphatically not dark and barbaric, they're "evil" Vulcans, and aesthetically modeled on various European Imperial iconographies with lots of Eagle/raptor symbolism. Ancient Roman (it's in the name already) or even 20th century Fascist seems like the reference points.

The Cardashians seem to be based on Totalitarian Communist regimes. They have grey skin, which isn't dark, but is also not a human skintone anyway, but they seem to map most closely to Russian/Stalinist. Not dark or barbaric by any means.

The Borg seem to be a comment on Western technocracy run-amok. I have trouble seeing the Borg as anything besides a cautionary warning against tech singularity ideology. If you submit your culture to the logic of machines don't be surprised when it becomes mechanical and inhumane.

There are dark and barbaric trek villains too, of course. The Jem'Hadar shock troopers seem like a particularly charged take on the trope, being essentially militarized slaves. Interesting, though, that the Jem'Hadar were controlled by a very white technocratic Vorta. Maybe a reference to historical practices like the Ottoman Jannisaries. What should we make of the non-humanoid shapeshifter "founders" though? Pure scifi or allegory for the formless, faceless, secretive domination of neoliberal capitalist interests acting in the shadows?

The Ferengi are dark skinned and despicable, with more than a hint of "Shylock" flavored bigotry incorporated into the trope. Kinda unfortunate. They did significantly redeem this trope in later DS9 episodes when they focused more on Quark and showed some of the more nuanced and interesting aspects of Ferengi culture.

And then there's the Klingons. This one is hard to put a finger on. They were originally introduced as space barbarians with a swarthy (but not black) complexion. I think the original model there was intended to be something like Barbary Corsairs, which is kind of a racist trope I guess. The Klingons were updated a lot though. The more mature portrayals of Klingons had them as an honor society that resembles Samurai culture in a lot of ways, while also incorporating a kind of hedonistic body culture that is very un-Japanese. It's not so simple really. What about now? Klingons made less human-seeming and more cartoon villain seeming? Not sure where they're going with this.

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by busterarm on Monday September 25, 2017 @07:52PM (#15335122)
They look different than us and follow different societal norms, right?

Forest. Trees.

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by maxerickson on Monday September 25, 2017 @11:38PM (#15335945)
The giant space crystal was just hungry.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by busterarm on Monday September 25, 2017 @11:00PM (#15335809)
Moreover: you know how someone is going to behave...because of their race.

ST is the most racist show ever.

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by eesmith on Tuesday September 26, 2017 @03:13AM (#15336787)
Racist? Absolutely, both in its portrayal of humans and the narrow biological determinism often (but not universally) assigned to aliens.

But "most racist"? More than, Amos ‘n Andy, Tom and Jerry, or the Looney Tunes cartoons - three shows which often top the lists of most racist shows?

I disagree.

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by micheljones on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:34PM (#15334372)
I am guilty of the original sin. I have made my provocative comment before reading the article - I assumed it's about SF in general, primarily written SF based on the domain name.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by eesmith on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:40PM (#15334412)
Or reading the comments. I wrote https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15332868 precisely to prevent that mistake from happening.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by micheljones on Tuesday September 26, 2017 @06:01AM (#15337411)
I will try to develop my skill of reading not-yet-posted comments more.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by outsidetheparty on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:03PM (#15333048)
That totally makes sense. The original Star Trek, of course, was completely unconcerned with issues like race relations, social justice, equality, multiculturalism, and all that other socialist garbage. If only we could go back to those long-ago days of the 1960s when nobody ever talked about these terrible newfangled hippie-dippie ideals!
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by alexasmyths on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:15PM (#15333168)
The original Star Trek I think did it with reason.

I think 2017 is not the 1960's - and the problem is 'populist social leftism' is still using the 1960's playbook.

It's tired, it lacks nuance. The new Star Trek's remind me of the Canadian government's 'soft propaganda' in 'Degrassi Street' - which is lampooned spectacularly well on 'Kroll Show'. And I don't use the term 'propaganda' lightly - it's state sponsored 'youth education' - again, which can be positive, but it's always going to be a hint 'North Korea' no matter how you cut it.

I think motives are not so bad ... but we live in a new world. It's not so easy as 'putting a traditionally marginalized person in a leading role' anymore. That's all fine, but it's not thoughtful. It's Disney. And lazy.

As evidence of this culture - here you have a show that puts extraordinary attention on putting 'marginalized people into leading roles' - and yet the storyline is 'still racist'. This is getting ridiculous.

How about 'it's just not good'. Because it's not?

Coen Brothers said it right - while 'diversity might be important' - the most important thing is the story'. Start with the story, focus on the story. If you start with a social objective, it's just going to come out all wrong, and be 'bad'. Like the new Star Trek. Sadly.

"If only we could go back to those long-ago days of the 1960s when nobody ever talked about these terrible newfangled hippie-dippie ideals!"

It's not a 'hippie dippy idea' in 2017 to have a 'Black Woman' in charge of something. It's not common, but nobody will bat an eye, and I really don't think the vast, vast majority of people care one way or another. It's not the 1960's.

There are a lot of interesting stories to tell, that may very well involve 'non classical' views, so let's tell them.

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by mikeash on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:35PM (#15333357)
Was putting a Russian guy and a black woman on the bridge of the Enterprise a nuanced thing? It strikes me that the original Star Trek was fairly blatant in this respect. It may seem nuanced looking back because we see nothing special about something like a white man and a black woman kissing on TV, but at the time it was about as subtle as a stick of dynamite.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by alexasmyths on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:10PM (#15334191)
No, I didn't meant to say it was.

My point is the lines were easier drawn then - but not in 2017.

1950 was less nuanced. Black people were not allowed on TV, it was 'shocking' to have them there. An easy choice, in retrospect.

In 2017 - real social progress is complicated, it's not black and white. No pun intended :). I do not think that 'social progress' - in the populist sense, defined by the slightly-left-of-centre popular social voices - will have history fully behind them. Surely in many ways, but think it's much more complicated now.

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by TeMPOraL on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:54PM (#15333537)
Still, they also had a solid story to tell.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by mikeash on Tuesday September 26, 2017 @09:09AM (#15338262)
I agree that a solid story is key, but I don't see the connection. Maybe for a setting where diversity is fundamentally part of it (the Discovery cast might not work well in a production of Macbeth, say) but for something like Star Trek it seems completely separate. You need a good story with a diverse cast, and you need a good story without a diverse cast.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by outsidetheparty on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:23PM (#15333252)
> It's not a 'hippie dippy idea' in 2017 to have a 'Black Woman' in charge of something.

I completely agree! But neither is it "saddling the show with SJWism and PC culture." It's just... a normal, unremarkable thing, which as you say the vast majority of people won't care about one way or the other.

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by alexasmyths on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:41PM (#15333400)
I think the commenter has a point.

From a review: "T'Kuvma, the Klingon leader, has a rallying cry of “Remain Klingon .... loathes the Federation ideals of equality, diversity, and peace. "

Those are nice ideals, and the work in a nation like America, which is 'an idea'.

But consider for a moment that 95% of people outside America live in 'ethnic groups' - and who's ethnic identities are existentially challenged by an American led corporate-globalism.

I live in Quebec, where the issue is real. The decline of the 'Francophone' culture - which is very different than the 'rest of North America' - can be measured. It's not doing so badly, but it's an issue: new immigrants want to speak English, and be 'Anglo' (i.e. not just language), meaning at one point in the future 'there is no Quebec'. I'm not hyperbolic, I think it will be ok - but my point is the issue is fully legit. Literally two hours ago I had a convo in a cafe with a French girl studying finance 'in English' to move to 'New York' 'where the money is' (literally her words).

I agree with the commenter (maybe for different reasons) because I feel that many outside America will simply see 'The Federation' as a metaphor for 'Americanisation'.

"We are morally superior"

"Your culture is barbaric"

"Give up your stupid cultures and norms, and become like us, speak English, and put a Starbucks on every street corner"

Even though that might not be the intent - often, it really is pragmatically that.

'Free Trade' with America, which is 10x bigger than any partner really means: "once we have even trade, our companies will devour yours". Imagine if Canada-US had 'free trade' on ownership of Telecoms. Do you think Bell Canada would buy Verizon? No. Sprint, Verizon and AT&T would instantly buy Telus, Rogers and Bell (their Canadian counteroparts). 100% of the 'good jobs' would go to the US, in Canada, only 'tech support' and 'local marketing' would remain. But because the 'balance sheet' would look better, economists like it (and have convinced even left-of-center politicians of this).

Yes - ideas such as 'equal pay for equal work' are fairly universal ... but cultural context is relevant.

You know what would be more 'authentically Star Trek'? ----> the 'Prime Directive' !!! "Don't mess with other cultures!"

If they stuck to the 'Prime Directive' maybe they'd be more appreciative/understanding of the Klingon's views instead of just starting a war (!) with them :)

FYI - the original Klingon's I don't think were politicized in this context, of course I think Rodenberry may have used them as a stand-in for the Soviets or whatever. (Soviets were hard-core egalitarians though, at least on paper. More female Engineers than males in Soviet Russia).

Anyhow: "Disney Social Politics" does not fit very well in the rest of the world. Even though Americans think they might be 'doing good' by promoting specific values, like so many things, we know the parable about 'good intentions'. Let's try the 'Prime Directive' (except when it comes to stopping things like genocide etc..) I like that one :).

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by outsidetheparty on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:01PM (#15333597)
I'm having a really difficult time connecting the points you're making about corporate globalism -- much of which I agree with! -- with the comment we're responding to.

My sole point was that Star Trek has literally always been explicitly about idealized, utopian social justice -- so complaining that it's in decline because of SJWism is ridiculous. Star Trek was 100% PC SJW from day one.

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by WalterSear on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:09PM (#15333122)
Not everyone equates the later with the former, fwiw.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by outsidetheparty on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:10PM (#15333136)
I honestly don't know what you mean by this?
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by WalterSear on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:18PM (#15333201)
That some people perceive a distinction to between "race relations, social justice, equality, multiculturalism, and all that other socialist garbage," and SJWism and PC culture.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by outsidetheparty on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:35PM (#15333350)
Oh, I see. The temptingly glib response would be to say that those people are wrong, and leave it at that.

Instead I guess I'll say that those people should try to be clearer about whatever distinction it is that they do see between those things, because just using "SJW" as a pejorative without explanation tends to look like a rejection of those ideals.

Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by WalterSear on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:28PM (#15333290)
What's more, your deleted comment is why they will continue to have a difference of opinion with you.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by outsidetheparty on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:37PM (#15333372)
You're not wrong there. I deleted it so I could take the time to expand on it beyond that glib knee-jerk reaction, which I regret posting even for the very brief period it was online.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by Jtsummers on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:42PM (#15333414)
Go to your profile, put a number into the "Delay" field. This is how I (usually) deal with my urge to post glib knee-jerk reactions. I have two minutes to edit and/or delete them before anyone else can see them.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by outsidetheparty on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:56PM (#15333555)
Thank you! I didn't know what that meant; that's a really useful feature.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by Jtsummers on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:01PM (#15333601)
I set it up after making a regrettable post that was replied to before I could delete it. It wasn't the worst thing I could've posted, but as I recall it wasn't a fair reply to whoever it was. I strongly dislike people doing that to me because it completely disrupts the conversation flow. So to resolve the conflict, I give myself two minutes to be able to freely delete things, which is still short enough that the conversation won't be unduly delayed.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by WalterSear on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:08PM (#15333667)
Woah! Thanks for this.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by micheljones on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:28PM (#15334333)
Dear Sir, thank you for your valuable snarkasm. You have proven me wrong on all accounts. The neoreligion of SJWism and PC culture that you subscribe to cannot be wrong in any way, and is always 100% right. I have seen the error of my ways and humbly accept my punishment.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by outsidetheparty on Monday September 25, 2017 @07:33PM (#15335034)
Yes, I can definitely tell you're interested in having a serious and thoughtful discussion about these issues, and can see that it would really be worth my time to engage with your nuanced opinions on the matter.
Re:Why did science fiction stop moving forward? by micheljones on Tuesday September 26, 2017 @05:57AM (#15337400)
Nice reversal attempt. Keep that snarkasm going!