News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by wmeredith on Sunday September 24, 2017 @10:01PM (#15327592)
Top talent... selling advertising... for a news aggregator. Sigh.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by adventured on Sunday September 24, 2017 @10:26PM (#15327681)
"Toutiao is on pace to pull in about $2.5 billion in revenue this year, largely from advertising."

If the media landscape isn't well organized across such a large society, or particularly when you have a massive new audience to introduce to news systems (China has gained what, 600 million new regular Internet users in the last seven years?), there's an amplified benefit to aggregation / managing all of that information. Which explains the seemingly crazy $2.5 billion in revenue.

Doing that service well, is every bit as valuable as something like Twitter or YouTube. It's about communicating valuable information to an extremely large audience. Why shouldn't that be quite valuable?

It only seems trivial because the eg US and European media landscapes are well established / entrenched, the audience is stagnant (there's little to no growth in the news business in the US or Europe) and the consumers are relatively experienced at mass societal consumption.

Consider the value of portals to early US Internet adopters for one example of how this concept works. Why were AOL, Yahoo, Netscape's portal, and numerous other portal-like services, so frequently used and valuable back then (but no longer)?

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by hasenj on Sunday September 24, 2017 @10:33PM (#15327705)
I think the sigh is about top talent being used for ads instead of something more fundamental to the advancement of technology, such as AI for things more significant like vision and language translation, etc.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by adventured on Sunday September 24, 2017 @10:40PM (#15327730)
What's more valuable than building a top notch system for delivering news (and everything that tends to go with that) to a billion people?

A very large number of engineers were dedicated to building out the radio and television technology platforms over decades. Was it all just to deliver ads? Trivial then right? Well that's what paid for a lot of it. It delivered community, it delivered news, it delivered entertainment, it connected people to the rest of their nation.

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by eli_gottlieb on Monday September 25, 2017 @09:25AM (#15330222)
> What's more valuable than building a top notch system for delivering news (and everything that tends to go with that) to a billion people?

Making it remotely accurate? Wiping out infectious diseases? Providing a billion people access to a healthy, nutritious diet? Saving the planet from ecological devastation?

I can think of a lot of very hard problems that have far more value than delivering advertisements packed into clickbait and fake news.

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by pc86 on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:35PM (#15331838)
Software developers are not wiping out infectious disease.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by hasenj on Monday September 25, 2017 @08:53PM (#15335352)
There's room for software to help alot in these efforts.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by eli_gottlieb on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:32PM (#15332808)
Then maybe we should stop being software developers!
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by hasenj on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:30AM (#15328075)
Delivering news is a solved problem.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by KGIII on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:03AM (#15328541)
It would appear there is no consensus about that.

I'd agree with them, by the way. I don't think we really have that many solved problems. I'd consider that to be hubris and see many things that can be improved on, across the spectrum of ideas and implementations.

In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of much of anything that is a solved problem. Most everything can be improved.

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by hasenj on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:12AM (#15328563)
It's solved from a technical point of view.

You might want to find ways to optimize it form non-technical aspects, such as, how to get more users, how to write better titles, etc. But there's nothing that is technically challenging about it.

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by KGIII on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:22AM (#15328589)
Both of your examples, more users and better titles, can absolutely be technical improvements. Both of them could be, for example, improved by using machine learning to attract more users by appealing on an individual level and doing things like optimizing titles for the individual and pushing those individualized results out.

I'm sure there are even more technological advancements that can be made - and I suspect there always will be.

I'm not saying that it is currently ineffective, just that it isn't solved - meaning that there are still solutions to improve efficiency and efficacy. I actually see 'solved problem' as a kind of defeatism.

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by hasenj on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:55AM (#15328895)
I think using AI to make clickbaity titles is still sigh-worthy.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by KGIII on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:20AM (#15328976)
In theory, it doesn't have to be evil. In theory, it could be good to attract users to information that benefits them and increases discoverability for that purpose. In theory...
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by hasenj on Monday September 25, 2017 @06:03AM (#15329164)
The same thing can be said about spam. It could be good to be able to send useful information to users right to their inbox while avoiding being detected as "spam".

In reality it's mostly just dark pattern marketing.

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by KGIII on Monday September 25, 2017 @06:29AM (#15329290)
Well, maybe we could use the news to make more people aware of it and help mitigate human behavior? ;-)

But, yeah, it can be used for nefarious purposes. In fact, it probably will be. Hidden under that will be good uses.

I suspect there's going to be constant innovation. There are people who thought that personal transportation was a solved problem back when we rode animals. These days, we are looking at an EV revolution and SDV somewhere in the not-too-distant future. Along the way, it hasn't been a solved problem, even though it looked like it was.

I guess that's what I've been clumsily trying to say.

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by cpeterso on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:04AM (#15328377)
And the Jinri Toutiao app is just an aggregator delivering other sites' news.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by sdfgelgh43oito3 on Sunday September 24, 2017 @10:54PM (#15327771)
news aggregation, and the selective targeting of individuals for advertising might just be the most powerful social influence today. Wins elections even...
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by moneytalks on Sunday September 24, 2017 @11:35PM (#15327890)
Yes and that's what's so depressing about it.

As engineers, wouldn't it be cool if the most valuable thing we could do was building tools that are inherently valuable instead of valuable because of the tool's ability to connect users with someone who wants to buy their attention?

You know, build some software that doesn't make you feel like a pimp.

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by fiblye on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:36AM (#15328095)
Your first problem there is monetizing it. If nobody can pay for it, nobody is going to get together to make it.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by saimiam on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:19AM (#15328241)
I've posted this on HN before but we at Datajoy are trying to solve the problem of consuming without paying which lets ad platforms treat us as the product: https://datajoy.us/fupm.html.

Use it, block ads, pay for content...sleep better?

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by eli_gottlieb on Monday September 25, 2017 @09:21AM (#15330184)
Maybe we should get rid of capitalism, then. It's obviously not doing the job of allocating resources to beneficial goods or raising productivity.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by alexanderstears on Monday September 25, 2017 @06:25PM (#15334693)
It's important to separate society's tastes, preferences, and incentives with market-based resource allocation.

At the very least, corporations and capitalism give us a productive place to put sociopaths (the alternative is religion, healthcare, government, exile/six feet under). And more communal economic systems seem to work well until the anti-social types take over - North Korea was actually better off than South Korea for awhile after the war and the anti-social types always do take over.

Capitalism does a really good job of making it easier to do more with less. My phone is a weather station, a flash light, a calculator, a camera, a camcorder, etc. and it's cheaper than most Cameras were just 30 years ago. On the flip side, a lot of the materials that make my phone come out of conflict zones and I'm sure that my phone funded some warlord's attack helicopters and that's not great and it's unfortunate that the 'past of least resistance' involves such unsavory things but the solution rests with more capitalism - the warlord needs to demand a higher price or operate the mines and figure out how to build a phone and go legit.

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by pc86 on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:32PM (#15331810)
I was unaware allocation of resources toward "beneficial goods" (to whom?) was every a touted positive effect of capitalism.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by eli_gottlieb on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:32PM (#15332807)
I was unaware that anyone actually believed deontic moral justifications for an economic system, so I would have thought actual benefits to the population are the only effective anyone's ever touted.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by fiblye on Monday September 25, 2017 @08:01PM (#15335156)
Even the USSR had money and wealth. Desire to accumulate wealth in some form is a primitive instinct.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by omphalos on Monday September 25, 2017 @06:10AM (#15329213)
Money isn't the only motivation someone can have. People write lots of open source code for free, for example.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by astura on Monday September 25, 2017 @08:23AM (#15329794)
A lot of open source work is professional paid work.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by alexanderstears on Monday September 25, 2017 @06:33PM (#15334736)
And good thing too but not all of it is - in fact, it's a sign of how well developers are treated that they can afford to volunteer their time and expertise for everyone: developers don't need to spend every second of every day on the grind for basic living.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by omphalos on Monday September 25, 2017 @07:29PM (#15334999)
Yes, and a lot of it isn't, which is what I'm saying :)
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by freshhawk on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:30AM (#15329014)
Sex work is way more honest.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by drawkbox on Monday September 25, 2017 @07:43AM (#15329595)
And porn and games always lead the way on innovation.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by popopobobobo on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:04PM (#15332586)
stopped me from innovating though
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by unityByFreedom on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:02AM (#15327988)
I wouldn't give advertising that much credit. An equal amount of money is spent on lost elections too.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by computerphage on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:05AM (#15328380)
> An equal amount of money is spent on lost elections too.

That's false. There's a pretty strong correlation between outspending and winning elections. The losing side usually spent less. In aggregate, much more money is spent winning elections than losing them.

eg: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/04/04/th...

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by TeMPOraL on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:41AM (#15328646)
I think the problem is that elections are this ridiculous zero-sum game that is able to consume ever increasing amount of resources, where almost entire contribution of one party goes to cancel out the contribution of another party.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by unityByFreedom on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:08PM (#15333113)
I don't actually feel it is zero sum. There is a lot of learning that happens through debate at all levels. One might argue it is the foundation of our society.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by TeMPOraL on Monday September 25, 2017 @04:08PM (#15333666)
I wasn't thinking about the debates. I was thinking about all the money spent on campaign advertisements - on posters, phone calls, radio ads, TV ads, Internet ads, and so on, and so on. All that does is cancel out similar efforts from other candidates.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by unityByFreedom on Monday September 25, 2017 @08:09PM (#15335191)
All that stuff leads the rest of us to debate too. The system depends upon having informed voters. As silly as that may sound today, I do feel that puts us in a better position to make progress than the other forms of government that exist.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by unityByFreedom on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:48AM (#15328509)
> There's a pretty strong correlation between outspending and winning elections. The losing side usually spent less. In aggregate, much more money is spent winning elections than losing them.

A lot of money is wasted on lost elections. I did say "equal", but my point was a lot of advertising dollars fail.

Barney Frank: "If the voters have a position, the votes will kick money's rear end any time. I've never met a politician-- I've been in the legislative bodies for 40 years now-- who, choosing between a significant opinion in his or her district and a number of campaign contributors, doesn't go with the district."

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/461/t...

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by bendoernberg on Monday September 25, 2017 @08:39AM (#15329889)
How does this explain the Republican party's continued support for healthcare bills with sub-25% approval ratings? Also I don't see Barney Frank, Signature Bank board member and author of a piece titled "Yes, I Took Bank Money. And It Made Me a Better Regulator" as a disinterested commentator.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by alexanderstears on Monday September 25, 2017 @06:38PM (#15334756)
Among the Republicans I know, all Obamacare-lite bills are more popular than Obamacare.

And there's probably a belief that people will like the bills after it passes. Just as a lot of 'conservatives' eventually came out in favor of Obamacare (like McCain), I'm sure a lot of people would admit that they like Obamacare-lite more than Obamacare. Self-interested politicians might think that the bills would be more popular once some people saw their health care burdens drop. And I don't think they're wrong, the healthy people who make Obamacare possible stand to gain the most under the Republican healthcare proposals - the young, the wealthy, the healthy.

Half the country votes and half the country votes GOP, a 25% approval rating can translate to near-universal approval in a political faction.

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by a-priori on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:07PM (#15331560)
The amount of money spent on American elections is incredible.

In the 2012 US Presidential election (seems the data is not yet available for 2016), an estimated $7B was spent in total by all candidates and private groups. This is about $21.54 per person.

For comparison, in the last Canadian federal election, the top 5 parties combined received $127M in funding (public + private contributions). This amounts to about $3.60 per person, about one sixth as much on a per capita basis.

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by orarbel1 on Sunday September 24, 2017 @10:48PM (#15327748)
"Top talent... selling advertising... for a news aggregator. Sigh"

Google? Facebook?

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by kibwen on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:18AM (#15328238)
Channeling that old quote: "The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads."
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by jaredklewis on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:32AM (#15328271)
Channeling a reaction I once heard to that old quote: "Well better than what the best minds of the last generation did: devise more powerful ways to kill communists."
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by adrianN on Monday September 25, 2017 @09:55AM (#15330459)
At least we got nuclear power, a space program, cryptography, the internet... out of that project. I just hope that today's project will be similarly useful. All the machine learning for ad targetting looks promising.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by quickthrower2 on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:38AM (#15328287)
Ads kill communism.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by SomeStupidShit on Monday September 25, 2017 @01:50AM (#15328332)
Much better than killing communists.
[dead]
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by sctb on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:45PM (#15332899)
We've banned this account for repeatedly violating the guidelines. If you'd like to comment civilly and substantively, you can email [email protected] and we'll unban the account if we believe you will.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by ddorian43 on Monday September 25, 2017 @05:18AM (#15328962)
Nah, they're probably working on game engines. See UDK release notes.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by popopobobobo on Monday September 25, 2017 @02:06PM (#15332610)
Yeah, I could have done things much more important. But this is what I do to make money. sigh...
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by hkmurakami on Sunday September 24, 2017 @11:53PM (#15327954)
Also $TWTR, in some sense, as a 1-to-N medium.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by AndrewKemendo on Sunday September 24, 2017 @10:15PM (#15327644)
Nobody will ever be happy. If someone says hey I can't pay top of market but we're doing something groundbreaking, they are talked about like they are a bunch of scammers. If someone is paying top salary but doing something mundane, it's "sigh."
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by TeMPOraL on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:45AM (#15328663)
Because in a better world, the "top salary" would go to those doing "something groudbreaking". As it is, the pay structures in society are totally inverted compared to social value they provide. In particular, the system is set up to give highest rewards to those who work on scamming other people.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by donovanm on Sunday September 24, 2017 @10:33PM (#15327703)
No approach will ever make everyone happy, but some people would be happy with those deals. It's only natural to want to work on interesting problems and be paid well & I don't think there's anything wrong with striving for that. In an ideal world we'd only work on what is the most interesting to us with no concern for money. In the real world there is an unfortunate flaw where we need money in order to survive. Lots of companies have an even worse issue when trying to recruit where the work is boring and the pay is average.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by cafebeen on Sunday September 24, 2017 @11:22PM (#15327845)
i think you mean, there will always be at least one person who is unhappy.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by tryingagainbro on Monday September 25, 2017 @03:58AM (#15328708)
Yeah but a $2.5 billion in revenue news aggregator. The revenue makes a bit of a difference, or a lot of it.

>> Toutiao is on pace to pull in about $2.5 billion in revenue this year, largely from advertising. It was just valued at more than $20 billion, according to a person familiar with the matter, roughly the same as Elon Musk's SpaceX.

Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by eberkund on Sunday September 24, 2017 @10:20PM (#15327664)
You say that like it is some basic task that any idiot with a computer science degree would be able to code up in a couple of weekends. Hey, maybe it is! But that just means the competition is even more fierce so it takes a lot to stand out. Like many things, it's not achieving the 95% that makes you successful but that extra 5% on top of all the other guys that makes the difference.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by avemg on Sunday September 24, 2017 @10:33PM (#15327702)
I suppose his comment was vague enough to interpret it however you want. To me, he's lamenting top talent being paid top dollar to work on better ways to get people to buy tchotchkes.
Re:Paying top employees the highest salaries in the market by zo1 on Monday September 25, 2017 @12:19AM (#15328045)
The original comment was quite lean, I'm not surprised we're all reading it differently.