These "values" existed all over the world back then, driven by a scientific movement we aptly named "scientific racism" these days. You know, a whole section of science busy trying to explain why some humans are just so much "better" than other humans based on their skin color, size of the head or other arbitrary physical attributes. This followed right on the tail of an era of colonialization which was also fueled by the racial stigma of "We gotta civilize those heathen savages by enslaving them and taking their lands".
It's exactly those values being so widespread and accepted which lead to the Nazis taking the "next step", which wasn't a really big one. The difference between treating a whole group of people as "lesser humans" by law, having them act as a slave class, and "exterminating" these very same people because there are supposedly too many of them, isn't that big of a difference.
The "values" behind these two approaches are exactly the same, labeling a whole group of people as "lesser humans", the difference was only a matter of execution in how to deal with those people. The US commercialized this behavior by using the slave force, putting a price on people like they are property. Similarly, forced labor drove large parts of the Third Reich's war machine and economic progress.
This might sound cold-hearted or like I'm trying to excuse the crimes of the Third Reich, none of this is my intention, my intention merely to point out how whole nations can be hypocrites about their own moral position because they didn't kill disfranchised people on a supposedly "industrialized scale", but "only" on a commercialized one.
The idea of world peace and equality in general was laughable until nuclear proliferation made total war among the world powers suicidal somewhere around the mid 20th century.
Which was exactly my point, it was the de-facto standard for the longest time and one of the major factors for colonialization, that went on until the Third Reich and at that point, most of humanity decided: "Nope, don't want anything like that anymore".
That still didn't excuse the Third Reich or their crimes, it still serves as a "negative example" and will most likely do so for the foreseeable future. In that regard you are vastly underestimating the importance of the Nürnberg trials in the creation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and its influence on the world community.
> The idea of world peace and equality in general was laughable until nuclear proliferation made total war among the world powers suicidal somewhere around the mid 20th century.
Nuclear proliferation mostly impacts governments behavior imho you are overestimating its impact on social progress and people generally becoming more accepting.
Factors like globalization and the Internet play a way bigger role in facilitating understanding between different people, it's also helpful to have a generally accepted standard of "Universal human rights", applying to every human being regardless of ethnicity or nationality.
MAD, with it's attached red scare, only generated generations of paranoid and distrustful people whos paranoid fear rules most of their worldviews, in some cases to this day.
It's a terrible habit we have as a nation. We are happy to forgive or excuse our sins but hold others to theirs.
If people in this thread were being honest they'd be well aware that this particularly American flaw isn't so specific to the US.
Sure. It's probably a human trait. But I'm not japanese or belgian or german so I wouldn't know.
But I'm responding to a comment which "excused" our sins and I'm an american so that's why I made the comment.
If it is a human trait, so be it. But the fact that you are pointing to the sins of others kinda proves my point doesn't it?
Okay. I can see you are passionate about this but you need to calm down. The guy offered his opinion. It wasn't a tirade.
> Who established the Atlantic slave trade if not Europeans?
Sure. And britain was the largest slave trading nation and they were the largest world economy, until the US took over. I don't think anyone is denying that it was the europeans who created the atlantic slave trade.
> Only pointing out the sins of others because some dick decided to turn a fun historical thread into smug hate the US thread.
There is really no need for this. You are better than this.
I can see this is getting a bit too heated so I'll just end it here. You are entitled to your opinion and the op is entitled to his. No need to attack people or use vulgur ad hominems.
Just because they don't use words like dick doesn't mean they aren't using vulgar ad hominems. The mistake is believing that people can distort history but as long as they're being nice about it, it's cool. The US is no more the beneficiary than any other country, so acting like the US is what it is only because of 400 years of loot and plunder (OP's phrasing) is ignoring that the Germans, French, and Russians would have looted and plundered each other and others (and did) for centuries. Therefore, the loot and plunder can't be the sole or even main reason behind American success, which is what the article was talking about.
If an African-American was to wander into a thread with similar sentiments about African-Americans, it'd be recognized for the prejudice it is, and ironically most of the posters here would recognize it there, too.
annual average temperature about 23 °F vs Average temperature: 55.7°F
Also, completely different time frame and technology standard.
Sibera might have given russia some value, but not remotely on the same scale as north america gave to the USA.
Could there be other things at play, like absolute autocracy dominating the Russian state even today? The Germans had plenty of space and resources had they not lost it trying to dominate their neighbors.
You are kind of proving his point.
He made a valid criticism of the US and its people's tendency to excuse their own bad behaviour, while noting that it is likely a common thing across most nations, and you get really defensive and angry because he had the audacity to do so.
That's the American exceptionalism thing we all know and love. You interpret criticism as a smug US hate thread which is fucking ridiculous and only serves to kill any debate.
stolen along with unlimited slave labour and IP from Europe
Exaggerated bullshit.
Using jingoism to spin this into some sort of exceptionalism celebrates the loot and plunder
Where's the jingoism in that article? The thread was a good excuse to get the hate on. If the OP would like to make accurate and measured claims, then we could have a discussion.
Ain't that a tad bit thin-skinned? If you consider this "hate" then boy ain't you lucky that you are no German. As a German, the only thing most people know about the country or culture pretty much boils down to "Oh Hitler and you killed millions of Jews!" maybe throw in some "beer/sausage/sauerkraut" for good measure.
No nation is perfect, pretty much every nation has some "ugly spots" in their past, the difference being in how nations treat these ugly spots. Imho that is where the US, as a nation, has been failing and keeps on failing because it considers itself so "exceptional" that even morals don't apply and as such it supposedly did never do anything wrong at all. A very one-sided narrative, a view of human history like it's all just a comic book story about the "good guys fighting the bad guys" where the good guys could never do wrong because for them the ends of "beating evil" always justify the means, it's like a "Hollywood reality".
This isn't meant as an attack on the country or the people, but merely as an outside observation: The US pretending to be "the good guys", regardless of what kind of methods they use or motivations they have, is one of the reasons why so many people around the world consider the US a nation of hypocrites and the biggest and most dangerous "rogue nation" on this planet.
Yes, this also exists in other countries, but no other country has such a global cultural/military reach and influence as the US does, so it sticks out the most and ends up influencing world affairs the most.
Again: This is not "hate", it's an observation from an outside-the-US PoV that's merely meant to inform.
If the US was really such an intolerant and unrepentant place, you wouldn't even have a debate about race. By and large we are a society that acknowledges wrongs and tries to fix them, even if it take decades to do so. I believe that's because the US is really not a singular culture but a mix of many, which ends up being a great advantage.
If it appears from the outside that the US sees itself in Hollywood good vs evil terms, everyone does. I guarantee you Merkel believes she is on the right side of history and a lot of Germans that they are culturally superior to others (you can observe it in this thread; maybe they have good reason). Yeah, US media promulgates a biased message, but that's Hollywood, US media at the same time is very ready to criticize such absurdities (see World Police, or modern political humor which is huge worldwide - Stewart, Colbert, Oliver).
It's just annoying to hear people from outside cultures try and shrink down a nation of 50 mini-nations and 300 million people into some kind of comprehensive worldview. It's not reality.
I assume other countries aren't perfect places, but I'm not on French and German message boards telling Germans how they're just thieves and murderers and that's why they have been successful. If you'll reread some of the comments in this thread, that sentiment is barely hidden.
That's because it's about more than merely "being aware", it's also about taking responsibility and learning a lesson and sadly it looks like that hasn't really happened in the US yet, exemplified by statements like this one:
> If the US was really such an intolerant and unrepentant place, you wouldn't even have a debate about race.
It's funny how you think that's something positive when it's anything but. It's the year 2017, that's probably a couple of decades too late for a "race debate" which isn't even a debate at all.
What happened in Charlottesville wasn't a "debate", it was a show of force by the US American far-right, which only acts so emboldened because the US never really dealt with its race issues besides "being aware" of them and acting decades too late, Charlottesville was the result of this half-arsed behavior and I fear it won't be the only nor the last one.
> If it appears from the outside that the US sees itself in Hollywood good vs evil terms, everyone does.
The difference being that the US has such a massive and far-reaching cultural influence that the "good guy" tale ain't only influencing US Americans in their patriotism, it basically ends up brainwashing large parts of foreign populations.
Of course, Merkel believes she is on the right side, so did Hitler, so did Raegan, so did Stalin. The difference being: Merkel is at least aware that this ain't always true, due to cultural history, the same doesn't apply to the US to the same degree if at all.
The US, as a country, never has acknowledged or atoned for any "national shame", that's why "US patriots" feel so comfortable bathing in their ultra-nationalism while being hilariously unaware of how fanatic it makes them.
Yes, there are Germans who consider their own culture superior to others, the difference being: It's not socially accepted in Germany at all, people like that are usually considered bigots. This is because we Germans are not only aware of our past mistakes, we take responsibility by trying not to repeat them.
And one of the mistakes Germans made was following unfettered fanatism in the form of patriotism. Patriotism and national pride had both been major driving elements for the Nazis taking over power and being able to commit their crimes.
In that regard, the US shares many similarities with the Third Reich, more than most people would like to admit. Way too many US Americans are complicit in their countries crimes as they rather indulge in their patriotism about being "Number One" in "everything".
> US media at the same time is very ready to criticize such absurdities (see World Police, or modern political humor which is huge worldwide - Stewart, Colbert, Oliver).
I'm sure Colbert and Oliver have just as much international reach and influence as Hollywood blockbuster movies like Black Hawk Down, American Sniper, Top Gun or even Casablanca, which have been shaping world opinions about the US for decades.
> It's just annoying to hear people from outside cultures try and shrink down a nation of 50 mini-nations and 300 million people into some kind of comprehensive worldview. It's not reality.
The US ain't "50 mini-nations", the cultural, linguistical and geographical differences just don't support a statement like that. There's also a reason these states are United because they share "some kind of comprehensive worldview", which at its most basic level starts with the "American Dream" and at the extreme ends results with "America Number 1, America First" fanatics.
> I assume other countries aren't perfect places, but I'm not on French and German message boards telling Germans how they're just thieves and murderers and that's why they have been successful.
Excuse my naivety, but to me, this ain't a "US American message board", I rarely think in such terms when I'm surfing online, to me, it's foremost an English language message board devoid of any national connection. There are lots of international topics and people around here, just because somebody speaks English, or a board uses it as its language, does not make them US American.
I'm not happy with everything my country does, I'm not happy with everything they've done. There's a lot of progress that needs to be made but at the same time progress is being made and has been made. There are horrific as well as laudable things my native culture/country has done. We have a lot to teach others as well as learn from others, and we as a culture would do well to find respectful ways to interact with other cultures in the world, because ultimately we're human and we have shared interests.
That's what I believe generally, and I believe that above statement is true or should be true of every culture. You're free to disagree.
Sadly that might be true to a certain extent, but that shouldn't stop us from still trying to understand each other. Imho we've managed, at least, a little bit of that, have a good one!
That's an odd standard to set. Racial discrimination, based on ethnicity, also used to be a global norm, yet that didn't and doesn't excuse the crimes of the Third Reich.
While African-American GI's fought against the disfranchisement of European Jews, their own home country still had racial segregation laws in place for decades after WWII.
One could easily fathom an alternate reality where the Third Reich didn't happen/didn't turn out as extreme and as a result, racial segregation and bigotry would still be a "global standard" because humanity didn't see the worst and most extreme outcomes of it.
Who knows, a couple of decades from now the US might serve as yet another negative example for one of humanities many follies.