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Re:Consciousness Goes Deeper Than We Think by visarga on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @03:25AM (#15291492)
Being unable to agree on a definition for consciousness is a huge problem. I think this happens because consciousness is being studied at a too abstract (high) level. Instead, we should switch to the low level dual of this problem - game theory and reinforcement learning. Fortunately, at this level definitions are exact and concrete - agent, environment, goal, actions, values. At this level we can understand and simulate what it means to be a worm, or a bat - as agents playing games.

I think what the current philosophic theory of consciousness lacks is a focus on the game itself. The agent is but a part of the environment, and the game is much more than the agent. The whole environment-agent-game system is what creates consciousness and also explains the purpose of consciousness (to maximize goals for agents).

Analyzing consciousness outside its game is meaningless (such as p-zombies) - the game is the fundamental meaning creator, defining the space of consciousness. The Chinese room is not part of a game, it is not embodied in the world, and has no goals to attain, that is why it is not conscious, it is just a data processing system.

On the other part, a bacteria can be conscious on a chemical, electric and foto level even if it can only process data with its gene regulatory network (which is like a small chemical neural net). A bacteria has clear goals (gaining nutrients, replication) thus its consciousness is useful for something - all consciousness needs to have a clear goal otherwise it would not exist in the first place - something rarely emphasized in consciousness articles.

Re:Consciousness Goes Deeper Than We Think by roceasta on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @09:35AM (#15293543)
>switch to the low level dual of this problem [...] reinforcement learning.

But that is itself a theory about the problem of consciousness! So why not do both? There's no obvious short cut through the confusion, but discoveries in one field may guide questions in the other. In general I think it helps to have one's feet on the ground as well as one's head in the stars (for instance Newton ground his own lenses).

Re:Consciousness Goes Deeper Than We Think by eli_gottlieb on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @10:20AM (#15293987)
>But that is itself a theory about the problem of consciousness!

No it's not! It's a computational theory of motivated action.

Re:Consciousness Goes Deeper Than We Think by roceasta on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @10:28AM (#15294087)
What I mean is that the idea that reinforcement learning is a 'low level dual' of the problem of consciousness is also a theory about the problem of consciousness. It's part and parcel of philosophical topics that one can't get out of the game...
Re:Consciousness Goes Deeper Than We Think by bladecatcher on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @05:02AM (#15291833)
>> Instead, we should switch to the low level dual of this problem - game theory and reinforcement learning

This sounds a bit naive.

Re:Consciousness Goes Deeper Than We Think by visarga on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @06:06AM (#15292114)
Well, defining the "hard problem" hasn't gotten us any closer to understanding consciousness in the last 22 years. The hard problem just moves consciousness problem into an unfruitful direction. It's time for more practical approaches.
Re:Consciousness Goes Deeper Than We Think by mannykannot on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @07:40AM (#15292612)
I think attempts to rule out physicalism with arguments about qualia and such have gotten us nowhere, and I have no problem with studying game theory and experimenting with reinforcement learning, but the idea that these alone will fully explain consciousness is conjecture at this point - a conjecture that I, personally, am not ready to make.

Quite a few people on either side of the physicalism - dualism debate seem to be more keen on declaring victory and cutting off further discussion than they are in getting to the bottom of the issue.

BTW, on Searle's 'Chinese Room' argument, I have always been in the 'the system as a whole would be conscious' camp.

Re:Consciousness Goes Deeper Than We Think by bladecatcher on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @06:18AM (#15292172)
Not sure where your 22 years estimate comes from. I think man has been trying to understand it for much longer maybe thousands of years ? - and has found answers through techniques that are outside of the mind - such as meditation.
Re:Consciousness Goes Deeper Than We Think by Schizotypy on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @01:50PM (#15296444)
From an empirical standpoint, meditation gives us no information whatsoever. Just thinking about something will not lead you to some sort of mystically revealed truth
Re:Consciousness Goes Deeper Than We Think by dEnigma on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @06:58AM (#15292362)
How does a bacterium have clear goals? What about one that has a generic defect and doesn't "try" to reproduce? Is it conscious? Is it part of a game? Is the stone that gets dissolved by lichen part of a game?
Re:Consciousness Goes Deeper Than We Think by ThomPete on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @10:56AM (#15294407)
We don't really need to agree on a definitions of consciousness. All we need is to be able to use the knowledge we do have however phrased, for the things we want to use it for.