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Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by dreen on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @11:58AM (#15285764)
I used it to transfer money between countries with an exchange rate better than any other available. Surely this is not illegal?
Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by sboselli on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:11PM (#15285900)
Yes, unfortunately, that is indeed illegal.

That's exactly what capital flight is (one of its forms), and what most thrid-world countries try to avoid by these banning practices. They (we) have shitty unstable currencies and broken banking systems that the people have no trust in, so they use their savings to buy USD (hard to do in these countries) or Bitcoin to maintain value. Note that money doesn't even need to leave the country for it to be a form of capital flight; just the fact alone that you're buying foreign currency or Bitcoin in a black market.

Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by eloff on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @12:05PM (#15285839)
It is in China now. Russia too IIRC. Probably several other countries that impose capital controls.

In the west this is legal, but the bank may still ask you where the money came from under their enforcement of laws like knowing your customer and money laundering controls.

Tax agencies may also get involved if there is automatic reporting.

Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by the_mitsuhiko on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:27PM (#15286700)
How is it illegal in Russia?
Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by eloff on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @05:08PM (#15288827)
Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by flatfilefan on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @06:34PM (#15289388)
this has never become a law afaik
Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by eloff on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @09:13AM (#15293327)
Not yet anyway, laws take time. I hope it doesn't become law (and I suspect it's too extreme for that, even for Russia.) But it gives you an idea of the way things are trending there.
Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by occamrazor on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @01:19PM (#15286604)
Forex commissions are lower than 1%. Which exchanges offer better rates on a fiat/bitcoin/fiat transfer?
Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by yourapostasy on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:23PM (#15288453)
Where are you getting below 1%, and how much are you exchanging? I'm working with 5-figure USD amounts, drafted on paper checks, and I'm averaging right around 1-1.2% after all costs are accounted for, but not below that.
Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by tonfa on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @06:36PM (#15289398)
Stock broker with FX, market spread and low fee, total result can easily be less than 0.1% (and even a lot less most likely closer to 0.01%).
Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by yourapostasy on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @09:24PM (#15290062)
How do I get in touch with a "Stock broker with FX"? That's not a term I'm familiar with unfortunately, and searching that string turns up either FX brokers, or FX trading platforms.

I've spoken with my US equities/funds brokerage firm, and they have an FX desk, but they're still more expensive than the dedicated FX broker I found and currently work with. Before that, I was regularly raked by my US bank for 4-6% off the mid-market. I haven't seen mid-market spread + 0.01% anywhere, and only seen + 0.1% thrown around for 6-figure and up USD transaction sizes, wire transfer (ACH or SWIFT), at least several of those per month volume. TransferWise works at mid-market + 1%; but they don't work with paper checks. What you're getting is even better than cryptocurrency exchange-facilitated conversions, so I'm very interested in finding out more if you can post a pointer in the right direction. Thanks.

Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by tonfa on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @02:39AM (#15291302)
https://www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=commission...

(Not an endorsement in any way and I'm sure there are others).

Fees are min($2, 0.002%), typical spread is a few pip or much less (eg. EURUSD at the moment: 1.20015 (sell) 1.20020 (buy)). But you'll also need a bank account in both currency most likely.

edit: maybe a downside, but there's a min $10/month activity fee at IB if you have less than 100k holdings (but your transaction fees count against that). But as I said, I'm sure IB isn't the only place with those offerings.

Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by yourapostasy on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @05:13PM (#15298303)
Thanks, I'll keep them in mind if a wire transfer comes up in the future, that looks useful. Unfortunately, many of my non-US customers still request remitting in their native currency via paper check. And IB doesn't seem to accept paper checks from commercial entities other than banks.

Part of my forex broker's value add is they have banking points of presence in many nations, and can accept the check there, then convert to any currency I designate (typically USD). That would probably explain much of the spread between IB's and my FX broker's margins.

Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by occamrazor on Wednesday September 20, 2017 @11:21AM (#15294729)
I had in mind transactions in Europe within the SEPA area, eg EUR/GBP/CHF. Banks charge nothing for the transfer, 0.5% fee, and the spread which often is 0.1% or less. FX brokers have even better conditions for high volume customers.
Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by charlesdm on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:45PM (#15288647)
I can exchange FX at 0.5% market rate, and that's through an online stock broker. I can probably do better through a forex broker, e.g. 0.25%. I don't see how Bitcoin can be more competitive.
Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by sushid on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:37PM (#15288082)
Kraken is ~.26% for a taker and ~.16% for a maker. And in some places, you have to jump through a lot of hoops to send money.
Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by yourapostasy on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:31PM (#15288529)
Unfortunately, many companies still insist upon remitting in paper checks, especially for cross-border transactions. If I could route a paper check remittance to a BTC/ETH exchange like Kraken, buy into BTC/ETH in that paper check's denomination, then immediately sell and withdraw as USD, then I and many other vendors could solve that use case. If anyone knows of a BTC/ETH exchange with turnarounds even faster than forex brokers, and can process paper checks, then please post who you use. For a world economy that is supposed to be a global integrated entity, the amount of rentier hurdles sitting on the borders never ceases to amaze me.

For the few customers that agree to a wire transfer, I'm trying out a cryptocurrency exchange in 2018 to convert them to USD.

Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by throwaway613834 on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @02:37PM (#15287524)
This is a great example of something that just boggles my mind. With all the regulation out there (on financial stuff in this case), how do people naturally come to the conclusion that such a scheme bypassing them is not illegal? (genuine question; not disparaging you)
Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by gph on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:28PM (#15288015)
Well that is sort of a common law view of things. But most countries practice case law, which means if somethings not explicitly illegal then it must be legal. So I don't think circumventing the law is seen the same way as it would over in the anglosphere, where we'd condemn someone for intentionally not following the 'spirit of the law' and a judge/jury might convict them anyways.

Disclaimer: IANAL and perhaps a bad judge of how people around the world view the law.

Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by throwaway613834 on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @03:33PM (#15288047)
> Well that is sort of a common law view of things. But most countries practice case law

Aren't these the same thing? [1] Do you mean something else (civil law)?

But that's a great point; maybe the problem is my lack of living in a purely civil law country. The thing is though, it seems more like common sense to me than a legal issue. Like for example, if (say) murder with a knife and a gun had been illegal, but there was no law against using baseball bats, then suddenly everyone in a civil law system would naturally assume using baseball bats to kill would be okay? It just doesn't make sense to me that "whatever is not expressly illegal must be legal", whatever the legal system... but maybe you're saying that would actually stand up in a civil-law court, and people would actually be okay with it?

It's also quite counter-intuitive to me since the US (with its common law) seems to be quite prominent in its tendency to let its people and companies stick to the letter of the law but not its intent. e.g. so many corporations find legal loopholes to take advantage of all sorts of people (from consumers to politicians) by means which are not technically expressly illegal but which almost surely are out of line with the spirits of many existing laws.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by gph on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:16PM (#15288403)
Yea sorry, meant civil law.

Murder is kind of hard to use as an example because there's typically really strong moral and cultural understandings that you shouldn't be doing that. But lets think of a more nuanced example. Lets say there's a lake that's being overfished. The government doesn't want to outlaw all fishing, but they want to rein in the more massive fishing operations. So they outlaw using trawler nets in the lake, but people using conventional poles or spears can keep fishing as much as they want.

Now say someone comes along and figures out another method to massively overfish the lake without using nets. In civil law countries if the law is written to specifically outlaw the use of nets I think the people would look at the law as faulty instead of the person who exploits the loophole. After all, whatever method they figured out isn't actually illegal. And the way to solve the issue is to update the law, not to punish the clever loophole seeker.

But in common law countries the law would more likely be written in a way that can't be as strictly interpreted. There might be wiggle room that would allow a judge/jury to basically say "Look we didn't explicitly forbid what you are doing, but it's clearly something this law was meant to prevent. Therefore you're guilty, and case law will be updated to include this verdict."

At least that's how I interpret it.

Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by gcb0 on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:52PM (#15288696)
murder is actually the perfect example.

it was legal in so many ways in the past (slavery) and a few today (death penalty, wars)

the thing with all laws, and the state, is that they exist not to make the world fair, but ti maintain status quo.

in the death example, if the law explicitly left baseball bats deaths out, that means that someone with influence over the state wanted it to be exempt.

this is the same on china now probably. china has tons of tech and hydropower. heck they may have invented satoshi! and maybe now too many small players are disrupting their game? or it maybe be that btc is but an annoyance to them and when their economy crumbles because of the upcomingreal state buble they dont want to also have to deal with people loosing money to bogus ICOs. who knows?

Re:China orders Bitcoin exchanges in capital city to close by throwaway613834 on Tuesday September 19, 2017 @04:30PM (#15288510)
Interesting, thanks for the example. It doesn't fully seem to be consistent with my experience (I feel the US allows much more freedom than many civil law countries, which seems unintuitive give this line of reasoning) but you're probably right, I'll have to read more about this haha. Thanks!