News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by antirez on Monday September 11, 2017 @02:34PM (#15220906)
I don't know what to believe. A few days ago I spent some time checking publicly available data and the result is that the current state of art is extremely far from an autonomous car that, could like used to drive a taxi in a busy city like Rome. Not far as "still some effort needed" but potentially "not clear when this could be available" far. Now there are those claims made by multiple companies... Go figure.
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by gervase on Monday September 11, 2017 @02:42PM (#15220994)
Based on my own observations, there's probably a big difference between operating as a taxi in Berlin and Rome, and another between operating in Rome and Mumbai. This only factors in other human drivers and infrastructure design/signage, not weather conditions (a different can of worms).

I suspect that we'll see a progression like:

1) Well-regulated urban and highway environments

2) Well-regulated rural environments

3) Moderately regulated urban and rural environments

4) Poorly regulated rural environments

5) Poorly regulated urban environments

And I think we'll probably be stuck on #1 for a while. I would also venture that most companies claiming to "be there" or "almost there" are referring to #1 as well.

I also think that it's possible that politicians may try to legislate a transition up that list as that first case starts taking off (greater traffic enforcement, better signage/infrastructure, more rigorous driver training, etc).

Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by antirez on Monday September 11, 2017 @03:02PM (#15221221)
My feeling is that under special situations 1 degradates to 5, so to have good security anyway you have to solve problem 5.
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by mulmen on Monday September 11, 2017 @05:48PM (#15222706)
What are the special situations where 1 gives way to 5? The well-regulated part would imply to me that the possibility of slipping to another situation are eliminated or not allowed.
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by cmrdporcupine on Monday September 11, 2017 @07:19PM (#15223320)
Blizzard. Heavy rainfall or wind. Sudden crowd / riot / chaotic event.

Pretty sure you can't legislate those out of existence. And sadly I think the fact that these vehicles are being developed and tested in Silicon Valley is either a cause or an symptom of their probably inability to deal with those kinds of conditions.

Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by seanmcdirmid on Monday September 11, 2017 @08:02PM (#15223621)
Erm, china has more than a dozen well funded self driving efforts, some of them by very big companies (baidu). Those are being tested in places like Beijing, you never hear of them because you aren't looking outside of the USA.
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by mulmen on Monday September 11, 2017 @09:32PM (#15224066)
I wasn't suggesting legislating the conditions out of existence. I was thinking that kind of situation could be considered in the regulation. Much like VFR flight conditions a self-driving car would not operate in heavy rain/wind or low temperatures.
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by guelo on Monday September 11, 2017 @07:54PM (#15223563)
Also, accidents, road spills, random obstacles, construction, animals.
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by mulmen on Monday September 11, 2017 @09:33PM (#15224073)
Road spills, random obstacles and animals all have to be dealt with for any of this to work at all. Construction can be considered in the regulations and self-driving cars can just be restricted from auto-drive mode in construction areas.
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by alkonaut on Monday September 11, 2017 @05:46PM (#15222684)
Agree. And "will regulated" also probably includes a climate similar to what's found in e.g California.
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by cropsieboss on Monday September 11, 2017 @03:49PM (#15221672)
The thing is, for car driving you need combinatorial search combined with a good model (statistical) of the world. Research I've seen does not incorporate any kind of meaningful search.

Company that has all the roads and surroundings scanned and knows exactly where the car is at all times is at a huge advantage.

Partially observed world gets your head hurting. Not modelling other cars practically makes everything useless.

If you can't hallucinate everything around you as close as possible, the problem gets very very difficult.

I'm pretty sure there are companies close to solving the problem, as they have more data and some also know practically every road in the modern world.

Modelling and tracking other cars is a bigger issue, including pedestrians.

Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by dclowd9901 on Monday September 11, 2017 @05:16PM (#15222410)
> Modelling and tracking other cars is a bigger issue

Aren't there very reliable ways to model other cars? Something as big as a car can't move very unpredictably in a millisecond-to-millisecond basis. And at the end of the day, all you need to do is be able to model the behavior of your car.

If car in front of me starts to swerve over on a collision course with my car, my car can note the probability of a collision a long (computer-long) time before it really needs to do anything about it. Knowing full-well its own braking, swerving and acceleration capabilities at any given speed, it should be able to know when it _must_ take action to avoid the actions of another, and it doesn't even have to rely on reaction time.

No, I think the real problem here is for cars to do things like understand _context_ of a situation, like, for instance, how can it tell that there's a bus in front of me turning around that's going to be clear of my way in a moment vs. a tree that's been felled? That's something that computers are and will probably continue to be terrible at until they can closely mimic the capabilities of the human brain.

Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by bitL on Monday September 11, 2017 @06:38PM (#15223070)
> Modelling and tracking other cars is a bigger issue, including pedestrians.

Unscented Kalman filters and particle filters are used for that - they are pretty good if you sample environment with >10Hz rate. Most of what you said has been taken car of pretty well, those aren't really hot issues anymore. Also, the thinking these days is that humans (even mediocre) can do a good job driving using eyes only and more robust camera solutions based on deep learning are here. Their problem is inference speed as HW is not fast enough to allow FHD or 4K input feed to be processed realtime, so imagery has to be downscaled significantly, leading to errors. Similarly, tracking other cars only depends on how big supercomputer can you fit into your trunk.

Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by 1_2__4 on Monday September 11, 2017 @03:01PM (#15221208)
Maybe stop believing what companies say and start looking for third-party evidence that they're telling the truth
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by revelation on Monday September 11, 2017 @03:48PM (#15221670)
That gets boring fast, if you go by the evidence the only player in the self-driving space is Google. Ironically they are the most restrained in public statements while there is a long list of pretenders announcing they'll ship in 2020 and already discussing far-fetched (entirely) philosophical scenarios, like the whole abortion of an discussion we had on "should the car hit pedestrians or save its driver".

The whole conversation is unfortunately poisoned by endless wishful thinking instead of discussing hard evidence. I mean there is still a large proportion of people on here who think Tesla will somehow leapfrog Google because they have all those cars out there streaming the raw video data from their umpteen cameras back to Tesla HQ, utilizing an imaginary mobile communications standard that leapfrogs LTE by two orders of magnitude that they invented alongside their LIDAR-less L5 autonomous car software in record time.

Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by bobsil1 on Monday September 11, 2017 @07:31PM (#15223406)
They're bulk uploads over home WiFi, and Tesla hired plenty of ML names like Andrej Karpathy. Having said that, AGI is the bottleneck for full self-driving.
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by cmrdporcupine on Monday September 11, 2017 @07:21PM (#15223336)
Thank you, this is exactly spot on.

My personal skepticism on this subject has made me very unpopular at parties (well I don't actually go to parties, but you know) where lots of techy types go. Also earned me lots of downvotes here.

Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by return0 on Tuesday September 12, 2017 @04:15AM (#15225648)
OTOH it is easy to teach human drivers to behave carefully and differently when they encounter a self driving car. They could even require special marking or color on the cars. People learn to be careful with trains, trams etc so i don't see why they won't learn to behave more rationally when a SD car is passing by.
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by falcolas on Tuesday September 12, 2017 @09:35AM (#15227135)
Trains and trams are fairly easy to predict, though. They can only really go in two directions, and change speeds very gradually. And for all that we've "learned to be careful" around them, they still rack up 2-3 thousand crashes every year, even with extensive signing and signaling.
Re:Cruise's 3rd generation self-driving car by simonebrunozzi on Tuesday September 12, 2017 @09:41AM (#15227178)
You and I are both Italian (good to see you, by the way) - and we both know that every self-driving car would totally fail in Rome :)