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Re:Divorce and Occupation by twothamendment on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:21PM (#15178790)
I'm happy to be stuck with my wife for the next 4 decades and have more than one to look back at. When you find the right person, it isn't much of a compromise.

I'm curious - what is the more "modern approach"? No commitment, no family?

Re:Divorce and Occupation by fosk on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:30PM (#15178851)
Sure, but why getting married?

A couple can believe in love, without contracts on the side.

And if they decide to break up, then let it be so. Marriages more often than not seem to force people together when things are not right anymore, instead of letting them be free to choose something else when love is gone.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by spookthesunset on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:56PM (#15179054)
The longer you live together and pool resources the harder it will be to cleanly break apart. Marriage makes an implicit contract and ruleset an explicit one. If you are gonna be in a perma-relationship, why reinvent the wheel when you can adopt an existing system that has been in place in one form or other for thousands of years?
Re:Divorce and Occupation by fosk on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:04PM (#15179118)
I thought marriage was about love, but if it ends up being about managing resources then why not start something like a company with equal(or not) shares, vesting periods, etc? It would make more sense to me because it's a more efficient way of dealing with shared assets than the current legal form of marriage.
Re:Divorce and Occupation by nl on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:17PM (#15179871)
Sure, think of marriage as a default, off-the-shelf standard contract which attempts to make sure neither party is aggrieved if a split happens.

You can of course use a non-standard contract. It's called a pre-nup, and it has both the downsides and upsides of a non-standard contract.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by upvotinglurker on Thursday September 07, 2017 @08:39AM (#15191264)
Marriage being "about love" is a relatively recent phenomenon. It has previously been about managing resources, making family political/social alliances, and (as it still is) creating social and economic stability for children.

I don't have, want, or even particularly like children, and even I have a problem thinking of them as "shares" or "assets" or pre-deciding their fate with a formal contract written before they were born or old enough to express their own wishes.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by lookACamel on Wednesday September 06, 2017 @01:20AM (#15181407)
Because every couple is different. Marriage is incredibly simple. The actual complexities of marriage don't come from marriage itself but from all the shit left undefined, which has to worked out ad-hoc per couple.

I'm sure if you were the dictator and God-King of a small country, where you could reinvent society as you wish, you might be able to create something that would fit 99% of the population, since you would be able to forcibly squeeze the behavior of each couple into a few standardized containers with corresponding legal rulesets.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by pamqzl on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:12PM (#15179158)
Because people who are in love want to get married, like their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents and great-great-parents and [etc] did, not "start something like company for the holding of joint assets".

Getting married is romantic and irrational, and that's why we enjoy doing it.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by junkilo on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:01PM (#15179089)
Contracts are for when a relationship breaks down, not the other way around. The "contracts" offer protections to parents offering a legal path for enforcing access to their children as well as financial protections.

It also seems to offer access to additional social and cultural collateral than just cohabitation and has several inferred expectations in various social spheres.

Parties in a relationship sometimes have wildly different experiences, expectations and motivations "in love" and marriage provides a way to reduce this complexity.

There aren't many things that test your will and resolve more than having to sign a big contract on something. What people will commit to verbally is often vastly different to what they will actually sign to when it's in writing.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by twothamendment on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:58PM (#15179454)
I like my marriage to be a bit more permanent than my job. I work in an at-will situation. I can leave anytime and they can fire me anytime, no reason required. That is fine for work, but I like more stability in my personal life. I don't have an issue with a "contract" to agree not to shop around for a better gig. I don't have an issue with a contract that will take a bit of work to undo if it is wrong - all the better reason to get it right before entering into it. Marriage or not - throw kids into the mix and you have one of the big reasons people stick together when maybe they otherwise wouldn't.

Marriage is much more than believing in "love". Marriage can remind you that you might want to stick around even on the bad days. Life isn't always easy, but sometimes it is too easy to walk away from something that is better held on to.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by prawn on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:55PM (#15179434)
Perhaps as a way of encouraging you to persist through minor stumbles? As a tribute to your partner who dreams/hopes of a wedding?
Re:Divorce and Occupation by Balgair on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:27PM (#15178831)
Correct. Yes, I compromise with her, but it is because I love her and she is usually right and she comes at the problems loving me. We all have blind spots, and she knows mine pretty well by now. Together, we are much much stronger than apart. I can't live without her at this point, I would be 'myself', with the same body and memories, but I would not be me. It's like The Doctor when he re-gens. He has all the same memories, but he is totally different. Without my wife, I would be 'dead' in that way too. I wouldn't want to be with anyone else at this point, she and I have created a world and life together and I love her more everyday.
Re:Divorce and Occupation by fosk on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:33PM (#15178869)
Correct me if I am wrong, you could still love her, and do all the things you do, and keep supporting each other just with the power of your love without grabbing a pen and signing a piece of paper.

I am not arguing against long-term relationship or against honest and true love, I am arguing against the actual marriage practice.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by Balgair on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @05:48PM (#15179397)
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck, you may need some stale bread to feed it, not a sirloin.

What's the big deal with signing a piece of paper and having a really awesome party with all your family and friends? I don't get the adversity to the marriage 'practice' (not a bad word choice either, as you do have to practice it everyday).

Re:Divorce and Occupation by amag on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @06:29PM (#15179613)
It sounds like you agree with the concept but disagree with its name..

All relationships have their ups-and-downs, and there may come a time when the only thing holding it together is a promise that was made in front of other people. You may think that's a bad reason to stay together, but the fact is that that (bad) time will most likely pass and if you're still together you may very well find your way back to each other. I know my own marriage has sometimes hung by not much more than that and then we've found our way back.

Of course if a promise you make means very little to you, then so will marriage.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by fosk on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:16PM (#15179863)
> All relationships have their ups-and-downs, and there may come a time when the only thing holding it together is a promise that was made in front of other people.

Marriage is not a pre-requisite for going through the up and downs of a relationship. Normal relationships with no marriage have ups and downs too, and if there is mutual understanding and affection it will survive anyways. If it doesn't work, well, then maybe it's better to put an end to it and find a better partner?

I guess my question is, why are we putting ourselves in the corner with a contract just to force ourselves to stick around a little bit longer, since you could do that anyways without that same contract?

Maybe it's part of the human nature to go through this, to find a partner that we think will be loved forever, and then it won't work, and we learn from it, and we make more mistakes until we find the real one. Society tells you to find a life partner between a specific age range, but what if it's not true? What if you must make mistakes, you must break up with a partner, maybe only to find out that you both love each other and come back together. Maybe all of this must happen, but we are not letting it happen because of external contingencies.

In a way it seems like we are artificially containing our human nature.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by nostrademons on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:27PM (#15179919)
Why do people ever sign contracts? Every contract is a restriction on your future courses of action. That's the point - a contract that doesn't bind you to do something in the future isn't a contract.

The reason why we've evolved contracts at all is because it changes how people behave. When people know that bad things will happen when they break a contract, they are much less likely to break the contract. That in turn lets other people trust that the events stipulated in the contract will in fact occur, even if it is against the other party's immediate self-interest, and so they can act on the assumption that that future will be true. So for example: people sign confidentiality agreements with their employers because without them, the employer isn't going to share any information that's important to the business, and without that information, you can't do your job, and if you can't do your job, your value is zero to your employer and they're not going to pay you. Knowing that they can sue you for a lot of money if you spread trade secrets around, though, they can feel reasonably secure in telling you those trade secrets. It's against your immediate self-interest to be bound by any restrictions on your freedom of speech, but it's definitely in your long-term self-interest to have a job and develop professional skills which you wouldn't otherwise have.

So it is with marriage. The reason people get married is because it changes how our spouse behaves toward us, because they know our incentives are much more in favor of remaining within the relationship, and so they're willing to invest more and sacrifice more for your benefit, because there's a reasonable assumption that it will come back around to benefit them. Sure, people can behave that way anyways - but it's often not rational to, and many people get screwed by behaving as if they are married when their spouse actually has no intention of ever marrying them.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by nl on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:21PM (#15179890)
I guess my question is, why are we putting ourselves in the corner with a contract just to force ourselves to stick around a little bit longer, since you could do that anyways without that same contract?

So.. don't?

In most Western societies there is some degree of protection for de-facto relationships. You can always add extra protections with some form of extra legal agreement.

There's a generalized form of this called "marriage". Like most forms of legal structure that have evolved over the years (eg, land title! Employment law, etc) it has its problems but it's mostly sorta ok for most people.

But if you want to try to optimize that I don't think anyone will stop you.

Edit: There are of course some specific things (rights to children, default rights in case of a partner's death etc) which do require a marriage. You maybe able to replicate some of these things with a legal contract, but it will be a lot of work and no in anyway efficient.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by amag on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @07:33PM (#15179955)
> Marriage is not a pre-requisite for going through the up and downs of a relationship.

Never claimed as much. I said that sometimes the promise made is the thin string that holds the relationship together at that point in time. Sometimes that is all it takes.

It's the same psychological effect in play as when you declare to all your friends and family that you are on a diet. Once you've made that declaration, you'll be slightly more inclined to stick to the diet compared to just keeping it to yourself and "see how it goes". Sometimes that's all it takes to get yourself through a rough patch.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by edwhitesell on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @09:32PM (#15180516)
Without being married, or signing a piece of paper, there's no one in my life who could make medical or financial decisions if I were incapacitated. Maybe you have other relatives who could by default (and that you trust), but I don't. Having spent the last few months dealing with medical issues, this is more important to me than I had ever anticipated.

I see your point at a basic level, but I feel like you're missing out on details that really make an impact in the long run of the marriage itself. Maybe they aren't important to you today, but someday they may be.

Maybe whatever you do can be called a partnership or something else if you're more comfortable with that.

Re:Divorce and Occupation by spookthesunset on Tuesday September 05, 2017 @04:57PM (#15179059)
You are gonna get something that looks awfully close to a marriage over long enough of a term. Why not just go for marriage?