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A comment on Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships.

Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by markbnj on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:54PM (#15119076)
The article makes a lot of sense. If you know ships than it's not difficult to imagine how timidity - an unwillingness to literally "rock the boat" by making a course or engine revs change, waking up a senior officer, etc. - could lead to a situation where two vessels are converging past the point where anything can be done about it. In the merchant fleets, and in yachting circles where more competent sailors are involved, the people in control of vessels are taught that the best way to avoid a collision at sea is to make big, early changes to course and speed that the other vessel can clearly recognize and act on. It's possible that's the one sort of action the current culture discourages.
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Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by hudibras on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @08:01AM (#15123664)
>the best way to avoid a collision at sea is to make big, early changes to course and speed that the other vessel can clearly recognize and act on.

Longtime USN Surface Warfare Officer here: I can assure you that this is Rule #1 in the Navy as well.

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Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by markbnj on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @01:43PM (#15126103)
It's rather bizarre isn't it? Not just the failure to maneuver safely in the presence of another ship, but also the fact that whatever sensor technology they have didn't alert them or was ignored. Pretty much every modern commercial vessel these days has AIS and collision avoidance, I'd imagine naval vessels have _at least_ that. Just an odd thing all around, and to have it happen twice is either a hell of a coincidence or there is indeed something systemic at work.
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Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by hudibras on Wednesday August 30, 2017 @02:41AM (#15130120)
A factor in the McCain collision will likely be the merchant ship's over-reliance on AIS and radar and not getting a visual check before turning into the path of fast-moving ship that a.) doesn't use an AIS transponder, and b.) is purposely hard to see on radar. There will be certainly enough blame to go around to hit McCain's leadership, though. ("They should have known that the merchant couldn't see them well and been prepared for yadda yadda.")

The Fitzgerald collision, however, is a real mystery...

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Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by markbnj on Wednesday August 30, 2017 @02:23PM (#15134627)
Good points. I would also have expected that they'd be in radio communication maneuvering that closely to a large merchant vessel in a busy seaway.
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Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by tbihl on Tuesday August 29, 2017 @10:00PM (#15129174)
FWIW, US Navy ships don't broadcast on AIS, though they monitor it. That means the other vessels around them have to look out the window to notice them (or get hailed on radio.)
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Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by nnfy on Monday August 28, 2017 @02:57PM (#15119100)
Is it possibly good navy "opsec" not to telegraph maneuvers?
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Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by cconover on Monday August 28, 2017 @05:25PM (#15120213)
If they're not actively engaged in a naval exercise or actual warfighting requiring them to maneuver outside the Navigation Rules[0], they are subject to the rules the same as any other vessel - and even then, that's a pretty hard argument to make without actual shots fired in anger. Considerations are made in the rules for special requirements for lighting of naval vessels that, by the nature of their design, are unable to comply with the rules. However, the rules regarding avoiding collision apply to everyone, at all times.

[0] https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/CG_NRHB_20151231.pd...

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Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by zaphar on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:03PM (#15119149)
I can't imagine that would be the case in the context of at least this latest collision. On a civilian waterway. They don't appear to have been on maneuvers. And by all accounts one of the most crowded waterways you can sail through.

That does not seem like the context in which you would want to not telegraph maneuvers. Either way it's still a training and culture issue if they can't recognize the difference between the two contexts.

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Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by eggpy on Monday August 28, 2017 @07:13PM (#15120928)
It's worse opsec to needlessly crash into other ships...
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Re:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships by xg15 on Monday August 28, 2017 @06:01PM (#15120460)
The Trump school of opsec: Never reveal your plans to anyone, not even your own allies or subordinates. This way your enemy will be maximally confused. So will your allies, but... oh, look over there!
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