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Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by extr on Saturday August 26, 2017 @09:25PM (#15108505)
Yes, this is extremely dangerous. I'm sure some of the people mentioned have the expertise to pull it off, but for most this is like building a massive bomb in your garage. There's a reason that 18650s aren't generally sold directly to consumers, in most applications they need dedicated circuitry to be used safely. And that's for brand new cells, it's another story entirely to be using random collections of "old" cells, at various points in their life cycles, different rated capacities, and subtly different chemistry. No thanks!
Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by alasdair_ on Saturday August 26, 2017 @09:48PM (#15108603)
>There's a reason that 18650s aren't generally sold directly to consumers https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s?k=18650 has pages of them.

The last flashlight I bought requires them too.

Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by extr on Saturday August 26, 2017 @10:02PM (#15108667)
Yeah, I'm aware you can buy them. I have 4 cells sitting in front of me right now. But there is a big difference between someone specifically buying them for use in a high-discharge device like a flashlight or vaporizer versus picking up a pack at Walmart next to the AA/AAA. Because of the high discharge you can hurt yourself or start a fire much more easily. Just look at the stories of people with burns on their thighs from throwing them into a pocket with keys/change.
Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by userbinator on Saturday August 26, 2017 @10:12PM (#15108709)
But there is a big difference between someone specifically buying them for use in a high-discharge device like a flashlight or vaporizer versus picking up a pack at Walmart next to the AA/AAA

You can find 18650s for sale on walmart.com . I'm not sure if the physical stores carry them, because there aren't any where I live, but I know that in Shenzhen/HK and other parts of Asia you can easily find 18650s for sale amongst other batteries in physical stores.

Because of the high discharge you can hurt yourself or start a fire much more easily. Just look at the stories of people with burns on their thighs from throwing them into a pocket with keys/change.

NiCd/NiMH can also source huge currents if shorted.

Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by Zak on Saturday August 26, 2017 @10:34PM (#15108777)
> I'm not sure if the physical stores carry them

Flashlight geek here. Several people on flashlight forums have reported finding the Westinghouse branded 18650s in physical Walmart stores. They have a low capacity - 2000 mAh, compared to 3000-3500 for the latest cells from Sony/LG/Samsung/Sanyo/Panasonic. They also use a cell of unknown manufacture, so I can't be sure of the quality.

Specialty battery stores, higher-end outdoor gear stores and vape shops have 18650s, but it's best to get them online from dealers that know what they're doing. In the US, good options include Illumn, MTNelectronics and Li-ion Wholesale. These places have the gear to test batteries to make sure their suppliers didn't send them fakes, and usually have very competitive prices.

Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by throwaway613834 on Sunday August 27, 2017 @02:19AM (#15109403)
> Flashlight geek here.

Can I ask a flashlight question? :) How do I tell how many lumens a flashlight really is? I go on Amazon and I see XyzFire flashlights that claim to give out many more lumens than would make sense, and many times they're inconsistent on the page itself. I don't know how to really tell. (If it matters, I'm trying to find a flashlight that fits in my pocket, is < $20, is ideally zoomable, and is as bright as possible. Best one I've found so far is this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011B1U2QS)

Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by Zak on Sunday August 27, 2017 @10:14AM (#15110871)
You need to find a review written by an enthusiast with measuring, or at least estimating equipment. Assume all the *fire brands are outright lying. Cheap stuff claiming more than about 1500 lumens per 18650 is usually lying. There is, however a pocketable, $40 flashlight that makes an honest 4000+ lumens on a single 18650: the Emisar D4. There's a catch though: it's dissipating about 80 watts of power to do that and thermal throttling kicks in after a few seconds. To give it more HN cred, it has an open source firmware.

As to your request, a couple general recommendations first: skip the zoom, and don't chase output numbers. Zoom is pretty optically inefficient, and small zoomable flashlights don't end up with much more throw distance than similar size fixed reflector flashlights. They don't do wide-angle illumination as well either. A good reflector with sufficient output provides both at once. As for brightness, human perception of brightness is roughly logarithmic (with a base between 2 and 3), so it takes four times the output to look twice as bright. Anything over about 500 in a pocketable flashlight is pretty decent, and most 18650 lights have more.

Specific recommendation: the Wowtac/Atactical (both names show up on Amazon sometimes) A2. This is one of the smallest 18650 lights, has shortcuts to low, high and last-used modes from off and has a right-angle configuration that works equally well handheld of as a headlamp. A pocket clip, headband and 18650 battery with built-in USB charging port are included. It costs $20, and I have no idea how they make a profit given all the stuff it comes with. Go with the neutral white tint if you can find it; this looks more like sunlight and won't wash out colors as much as the cool white.

Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by voltagex_ on Monday August 28, 2017 @12:38AM (#15114433)
Any way to buy off Aliexpress without getting fakes?
Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by Zak on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:21AM (#15114951)
A few of the budget brands like Convoy, Eagle Eye, and Maxtoch have official Aliexpress stores. I'm not sure about linking Aliexpress here, as the filter might think I sold my account to a spambot, but their store IDs are:

* Convoy: 330416

* Eagle Eye: 1735126

* Maxtoch: 314381

All three make good stuff that has been popular with flashlight geeks. Convoys with "new firmware" or "Biscotti" have an open source firmware: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~toykeeper/flashlight-firmware/t...

Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by voltagex_ on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:24AM (#15114964)
Forgive me for my ignorance, but why do I need my flashlight to have open firmware?
Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by Zak on Monday August 28, 2017 @11:40AM (#15117284)
This is Hacker News. Open source is generally appreciated here even when there isn't a direct, concrete benefit to most end users.

But if you're here, there's a good chance you're the sort of person who could get an AVR programmer and tweak something if you don't like it. Different modes? Timed stepdowns to prevent overheating or not, or more sophisticated thermal regulation for the attiny25 based drivers that have a temperature sensor? A firmware with completely different behavior like near-continuous ramping instead of fixed modes?

It's hackable, and hackable is good.

Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by Whitestrake on Monday August 28, 2017 @01:15AM (#15114532)
Any thoughts on the Wowtac A2 vs Wowtac A2S?
Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by Zak on Monday August 28, 2017 @03:14AM (#15114924)
The A2S is not worth a 50% price increase for most users, but if you really want more output (in the form of a bigger hotspot, probably not more intensity or throw distance), it's only $10 extra.
Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by hwillis on Saturday August 26, 2017 @09:36PM (#15108547)
Theres no way to detonate a pack like this. 18650s have a pressure release, so the cstch fire but dont explode. In the very unlikely event that fails, a cell could burst, but it cant cause other cells to burst unless the entire pack failed to vent under extreme pressure.
Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by Reason077 on Saturday August 26, 2017 @09:51PM (#15108614)
Yeah. It's a total misconception that Lithium batteries can "explode". Sure, there's a fire risk if you have faulty or unprotected cells.

But there's no explosion risk unless there's something very wrong with the way they're packaged.

Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by JshWright on Sunday August 27, 2017 @09:21AM (#15110671)
> Sure, there's a fire risk if you have faulty or unprotected cells.

Or if an unrelated fire occurs in the garage/basement where it's located...

This is certainly enough stored energy to seriously ruin a firefighter's day if they didn't know it was there and how to properly deal with (or, more properly, to not bother dealing with it until it burns out).

Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by jaggederest on Saturday August 26, 2017 @10:19PM (#15108733)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md4l9bFDOtc

That, to my untrained eye, looks like enough batteries to take down nearby structures if they went up, and packaged in such a way that a runaway in one cell that caused it to vent would propagate to other cells nearby.

Granted they're pretty reasonably protected by 2-3 layers of electronic monitoring and on-cell fuses, but lord, a small fire would burn the neighborhood.

I think all that it would take to render them marginally safer is a firewall between the different packs made of some good steel or refractory material.

Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by extr on Saturday August 26, 2017 @10:08PM (#15108696)
Semantics. Is a battery undergoing thermal runaway/venting "exploding"? Or merely "ejecting scorching hot gas and catching fire?" Maybe it's not blowing up like an IED, but either way I don't want it happening in my garage.
Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by hwillis on Saturday August 26, 2017 @10:15PM (#15108723)
The difference between "can be ignited" and "massive bomb" is not semantics. Even new pouch cells are way safer than they used to be. Unregulated 18650 cells are quite safe if the correct circuitry is used. The only dependable way to ignite them is to smash completely open them at full charge.
Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by extr on Saturday August 26, 2017 @10:28PM (#15108756)
Cool, you caught me being hyperbolic. They are not literally a massive bomb.

> Even new pouch cells are way safer than they used to be.

Right, because these packs filled with recycled cells are going to have the latest protections.

> Unregulated 18650 cells are quite safe if the correct circuitry is used.

Which is my whole point, I'm not sure I trust the guy down the street to correctly wire and have adequate circuit protection for his DIY battery pack in his garage.

> The only dependable way to ignite them is to smash completely open them at full charge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24fYrV2vCPk

Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by dom0 on Sunday August 27, 2017 @10:02AM (#15110827)
Lithium ion batteries are able to experience thermal runaway caused by internal shorts. This can be mitigated by quality control and proper handling (a lesson Samsung recently learned), and also other chemistries (like LiFePo, which is much more stable).
Re:DIY Powerwall Builders Are Using Recycled Laptop Batterie... by zkms on Saturday August 26, 2017 @10:30PM (#15108761)
> There's a reason that 18650s aren't generally sold directly to consumers

They are, but IME the sourcing on some of those (especially through Amazon.com, which comingles items from different sources) is hinky. That 18650s can be dangerous if misused or if counterfeit isn't an argument for restricting availability, it's an argument for making them available directly to consumers from legitimate authentic sources.