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Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by eesmith on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:44AM (#15063511)
"If it took that much thrashing to get it right, you’d expect it to do something pretty deep right? Maybe a low-level hardware interface or .. I’m talking, of course, about an automated code formatter."

This reminds me of the Tao of Programming 3.3, at http://www.mit.edu/~xela/tao.html , the relevant part of which I will copy here:

There was once a programmer who was attached to the court of the warlord of Wu. The warlord asked the programmer: "Which is easier to design: an accounting package or an operating system?"

"An operating system," replied the programmer.

The warlord uttered an exclamation of disbelief. "Surely an accounting package is trivial next to the complexity of an operating system," he said.

"Not so," said the programmer, "When designing an accounting package, the programmer operates as a mediator between people having different ideas: how it must operate, how its reports must appear, and how it must conform to the tax laws. By contrast, an operating system is not limited by outside appearances. When designing an operating system, the programmer seeks the simplest harmony between machine and ideas. This is why an operating system is easier to design."

Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by mamcx on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:53PM (#15067780)
Oh, this one is great!

I always disagree with the people that dismiss "CRUD-apps" or languages/tools made for "simply (ja!) crud code!".

I do CRUD for life. Is NOT simply. Ever.

Sometimes, for relax, I toy with language design. Maybe I must do some assembler or APL. Certainly easier that try to implement the crazy scheme of "discounts" of my customers!

Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by kbenson on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:47PM (#15068416)
I do quite a lot of integration with our Point of Sale, directly through it's SQL back-end. Occasionally I represent partial or all inventory in a separate DB which is easier to deal with, isn't subject to their odd schema, and so I can tie it in more directly with lots of other data we've acquired.

Occasionally the owner brings up that maybe we should just write our own POS, to which I very quickly back-pedal and let him know that's not a good idea. As much as the actual inventory tracking isn't that hard compared to what we've done, the accounting portion is not something I want to touch with a ten-foot pole. Let someone else make sure the accounting reports we do our taxes from don't have odd bugs, and spread the gains of bug-testing and fixing across thousands of customers. I've already got plenty on my plate before trying to take on a massive project with huge downsides like that.

> Certainly easier that try to implement the crazy scheme of "discounts" of my customers!

Any billing system that can correctly account for all the various ways businesses and sales departments want to display, link, sell and promote services over time quickly approaches a complexity which is hard to to explain, and without conscious effort also quickly becomes the domain of a few select people that have bothered to actually dive into the mess, leading to silo'd expertise.

Additionally, if you try to make it easy for non-programmers to use, you quickly end up with a DSL which while it may get the job done admirably, is necessarily powerful and expressive enough that you end up having pseudo programmers to write and read them anyway.

Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by mamcx on Monday August 21, 2017 @07:39PM (#15068677)
> you quickly end up with a DSL which while it may get the job done admirably, is necessarily powerful and expressive enough that you end up having pseudo programmers to write and read them anyway.

Yes! Now I truly converting that "toy with language design" to actually "maybe use it for my apps!".

P.D: And yes, I know is good to use any lang already made, like Lua or TCL or similar. But CRUD-apps are not very well served by most languages today. If wanna know what kind of language is almost ideal check it FoxPro (or the dbase family)

Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by YouKnowBetter on Tuesday August 22, 2017 @02:50AM (#15070277)
My start as a professional programmer (freelance is one would call it now) was with end user applications. I am talking mid-80s. What I took away was the required level off fraud that was demanded in the sense that each business I coded for wanted a way to cook the books. Driving schools, bookshops you name it. As soon as the program was about ready and they were happy with the interface and the reports, they wanted 2 distinct outputs: one for the tax office and one for themselves. So yes, coding (parts of) Operating Systems is really relaxing and satisfying.
Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by moretai on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:13PM (#15066928)
where do people find quotes like this? Just reading a ton of books?
Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by khedoros1 on Monday August 21, 2017 @05:55PM (#15068148)
Reading one book (The Tao of Programming) would be sufficient (but not necessary) to be familiar with a lot of quotes similar to this one. Excerpts from that book are posted pretty often. I think that I probably ran into Tao of Programming around the time that I found The Jargon File, and some other things connected to classic hacker culture.
Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by npsimons on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:29PM (#15068307)
> where do people find quotes like this? Just reading a ton of books?

No lie, I've gotten more than one good book recommendation (including "Tao of Programming") from '/usr/games/fortune'. Also, if you find a book fascinating or highly informative, skim the bibliography for more like it.

Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by ColanR on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:46PM (#15068401)
what's "/usr/games/fortune"?
Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by sbierwagen on Monday August 21, 2017 @06:54PM (#15068461)
Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by mturmon on Monday August 21, 2017 @04:17PM (#15067489)
If you have not seen them, these are enlightening:

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/koans.html

I especially like the power-cycle one, due to spending plenty of time in a lab debugging circuits.

Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by tnecniv on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:49PM (#15067261)
The source of that particular one is one of those classic pieces of hacker (not to be confused with cracker) culture that has been floating around for decades.
Re:The Hardest Program I've Ever Written (2015) by acchow on Monday August 21, 2017 @03:00PM (#15066814)
Agreed. Crossing the boundary between the real world and the sanitized, virtual world takes a ton of effort.