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Re:Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to emplo... by idlewords on Thursday August 10, 2017 @07:32PM (#14985352)
If he was sincere in his defense of free expression at Google, James Damore should take this opportunity to speak out in defense of his former colleagues. Doxxing is a pure intimidation tactic.
Re:Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to emplo... by throwaway12124 on Thursday August 10, 2017 @07:38PM (#14985382)
Is there a name for this rhetorical form? If X was a true Y, they would do what I say all Ys should do.
Re:Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to emplo... by miranda_rights on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:16PM (#14985588)
Yeah, the "No True Scotsman" fallacy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Re:Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to emplo... by danso on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:41PM (#14985727)
> No true Scotsman is a kind of informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample.

I thought the "No True Scotsman" fallacy was something more like this:

Alice: "No programmer indents with tabs instead of spaces"

Bob: "But Guido Van Rossum liked using tabs [0]"

Alice: "No real programmer indents with tabs"

[0] http://web.archive.org/web/20160513172920/http://legacy.pyth...

Re:Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to emplo... by parrellel on Thursday August 10, 2017 @08:56PM (#14985801)
That's what he said, your example just implicitly excludes Python Language devs.
Re:Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to emplo... by danso on Thursday August 10, 2017 @09:37PM (#14985983)
No, not really. What's the universal generalization or group here, of which Damore is a counter-example? "Googlers who have written memos like Damore's and were then fired"? Damore's situation is a specific one, and he made specific claims about the importance of freedom of expression at Google:

A. Damore spoke out about how Googlers shouldn't feel unsafe to express themselves.

B. People at Google are reportedly intimidated about expressing themselves.

C. We would expect Damore to be unhappy that Googlers are feeling unsafe to express themselves.

That's not a logical fallacy. Doesn't mean that idleword's rhetorical argument can't be criticized for being overbearing. Or for being wrong in its premises, e.g. Damore never explicitly said freedom of expression at Google was important, he alleged that Google management's policies stifle ideological viewpoints. That doesn't mean Damore has an opinion about Google employees being intimidated by the public.

Re:Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to emplo... by stagbeetle on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:14AM (#14986530)
I see what you're saying, but it's an edge case for the No True Scotsman, with a mix of "moving the goal posts," i.e what real sincerity is like.

>No, not really. What's the universal generalization or group here, of which Damore is a counter-example?

"Sincere people."

There's also tinges of "wishful thinking."

Re:Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to emplo... by danso on Friday August 11, 2017 @02:05AM (#14986991)
Don't get me wrong, the rhetorical trick that idlewords is implied to use is just as annoying. Like, "If pro-life people truly cared about human and babies lives, why don't they speak up for single-payer healthcare?" It involves irrational assumptions and/or over-simplification of issues. And its implications are itself a logical fallacy: If people who support A also support B, and people who support C support B, then people who believe in A but not C are hypocrites

But No True Scotsman fallacies can occur without those pre-requisites and it's a common enough fallacy that it deserves its own term, so that it's easier to identify and denounce its use.

Also, I really want to know if there is a specific phrase/category that describes what idlewords is accused of, for the same reasons of easier identification and denunciation :)

Re:Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to emplo... by miranda_rights on Saturday August 12, 2017 @03:55PM (#14999645)
You're right, and I was wrong before - the example of "If X was a true Y, they would do what I say all Ys should do" seems like it might be related to No True Scotsman but it's definitely different. It seems like the fallacy would be in the speaker's definition of "a true Y", so maybe it's using a "Persuasive definition"[0]? I'm not certain, but I'm also curious if there's a better term!

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasive_definition

Re:Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to emplo... by parenthephobia on Thursday August 10, 2017 @09:45PM (#14986014)
It's only a fallacy if it isn't true.

Is it not true that a supporter of freedom of speech would support other people's freedom to disagree with him without being doxxed by his supporters?

It seems to me that it is true, at least if the supporter's conception of freedom of speech includes freedom from harassment after speaking, which Damore certainly appears to be believe to be true.

Having said that, although I think it would be commendable for him to publically rebuke doxxers, it is fallacious to argue that his support for freedom of speech carries with it an obligation to do so.

Re:Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to emplo... by throwaway12124 on Friday August 11, 2017 @12:18AM (#14986547)
Actually, rhetorical forms are fallacies if they are not universally true. That they may be true in particular instances is not important.
Re:Google cancels meeting on gender controversy due to emplo... by IshKebab on Friday August 11, 2017 @11:06AM (#14990382)
That's not what a fallacy is.