The Google memo was pertaining to their own company's diversity policy, and hence should be fair game for discussion. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, then the Obama quote at the bottom of the article summarizes my thoughts.
"Some takeaways from this whole fiasco"
"Here are some of those politically correct assertions that take on almost religious-like qualities..."
And thus appear to be completely linked to the topic of the Google "fiasco". Very confusing way to present the article if they are not relevant.
College is a very different place than a workplace. I am not required to interact with anyone on my college campus. Additionally, a workplace works best without the friction of being a place for the discussion of politics or controversial topics. Let alone "innocuous" jokes.
The author is upset that he is not greeted with hugs and applause for his memo. So what?
I only read the first part - and I'm no expert on these topics but I haven't experienced any exceptionalism within this profession as a woman. To the contrary, my code is out there in the open ready for scrutiny all the time. I truly believe this is a meritocratic profession. My understanding is that companies aim to hire equally qualified workers from more backgrounds of diversity. Even better, they have an economic incentive to do so.
Many of the time the people writing these things are looking for something to complain about. I haven't worked at Google but I haven't experienced this to be imbalanced in the way it's being portrayed.
I guess you can say the memo was put out there, and a discussion was had.
> Additionally, a workplace works best without the friction of being a place for the discussion of politics or controversial topics. Let alone "innocuous" jokes.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I prefer workplaces, or any environment for that matter, where we all respect each other enough to be open to the discussion of any topic and not easily offended over stupid meaningless jokes. That does not mean that one has to share their political beliefs or be pestered to engage in controversial debate - but a culture where everyone has to watch out for every little thing they say because any non-PC mark could be misconstrued and used as grounds for firing simply because someone deemed it offensive is intellectually hostile, unhealthy, and not the type of environment I want to be in.
> The author is upset that he is not greeted with hugs and applause for his memo. So what?
That's not why the author is upset. The author got fired.
The author was probably fired for going through the wrong channel to voice this. Now not only has he attacked his company but he also alienated his female coworkers who may feel he finds them potentially undeserving of their jobs or in excess supply, as implied by the article.
Sounds wonderful for the work environment, no? At the end of the day, Google is a company out to make money and build good culture in their company.
I respect your desire to surround yourself by those who aren't easily offended or too PC and I trust you will find many friends like that. However, that isn't really appropriate for the workplace where it's not your right to be treated well for any behavior.
Its an interesting topic to discuss but personally I think progress is with diversity. Not just for society but it benefits companies as well. I think they are seeing that and ultimately they are allowed to do what they wish.
If an opposing viewpoint backed by facts and evidence make you feel alienated, then the problem is not with the person who presented the facts. Affirmative action by definition discriminates in favor of women and underrepresented racial minorities, and this is simply a fact - the very definition of affirmative action itself.
I'm a huge proponent of diversity in the sense of embracing people with different perspectives and ideas. Deciding that you need X% of females and Y% of colored people does not make you a proponent of diversity, except in the shallow sense of wanting some set of racial representation. The strongest advocates of this form of racial diversity in my experience tend to actually be the most hostile towards diversity of opinions - like all the people deeming this memo sexist who fail to bring up any coherent argument backing up their claims (since most of them never read the document).
And one of the points of the memo was that we need to de-moralize diversity and allow people to have an honest discussion over it (which he ironically got fired over).
Diversity of thought > Diversity of appearance
Where Google drew this line was firing someone for implying some people were undeserving of their jobs due to the biological argument. This declaration breeds hostility and is an outright attack on the qualifications of his coworkers.
As far as I know, affirmative action is practiced in colleges while companies practice seeking diversity out of the same pool of qualified applicants. I agree with this and think it's great companies can make their own decisions.
I've applied to jobs for startups where I would have been the only woman on the small team and bro culture was strong. I don't fault them but I declined those positions. I've gravitated toward companies like Google and their diversity policies have attracted talent like me. Companies do this in their own self interest.
I just want to clarify I'm not at all offended that the memo writer wrote what he did. I would feel offended if someone I worked with felt like there were too many woman in their office while there were only 5% and I felt that they were all qualified.
Even measuring qualification is tricky as unless you are someone's manager. More often than not, I've witnessed men make poor assumptions unaware of their own prejudices. For example, I got accepted to a very good college. I was surprised as to how many men thought it was only because I was a woman. However I knew for a fact I got better grades than them. I simply didn't advertise mine.
The author did not state or imply that his co-workers were undeserving of their jobs. He was simply stating that biological differences may influence one's career ambitions.
For example: Women tend to be more empathetic than men, and this may have something to do with why they're more likely to pursue psychiatry as a profession than men.
This statement does not imply that men shouldn't pursue psychiatry, just that they're probably less likely to do so. I don't see how that statement is sexist.
> affirmative action is practiced in colleges while companies practice seeking diversity out of the same pool of qualified applicants
I'm not sure what the difference there is. Google calls itself an "affirmative action employer", and thus likely engages in the same kind of affirmative action that colleges do.
It's unfortunate that you've been the brunt of such prejudices. But as long as affirmative action is conducted the way it is (discriminating in favor of underrepresented minorities), those prejudices will always exist.
A better and more fair way of promoting diversity is to keep the interview process strictly meritocratic and gender/race-blind, but engage in initiatives that help prepare underrepresented minorities (ideally from low income backgrounds) for the interview process and encourage them to apply. My one stipulation would be that these programs should be open to anyone, rather than being restricted by race/gender.
Where exactly do you draw that line? As some thoughts are felt as hostile/ insulting to other people and enter grey territory. You can't really obligate people to be open to all thoughts - good luck with that.
What does that look like anyway within a workplace? If such a memo was sent out in my workplace and I had a slew of different thoughts on the topic, would I be allowed to spend work time to pitch my ideas to my coworkers and discuss them to my hearts content or simply send out a memo of my own? And then where does it end?
"Women tend to be more empathetic than men, and this may have something to do with why they're more likely to pursue psychiatry as a profession than men."
While that may be true statistically it's impossible to prove woman choose psychiatry because they're empathetic rather a myriad of other complex reasons. I can tell you as a woman, I don't think Biology plays a large part at all.
"But as long as affirmative action is conducted the way it is (discriminating in favor of underrepresented minorities), those prejudices will always exist."
Affirmative action is meant to level the playing field and balance out the effect of existing prejudices and biases when interviewing etc. So the real question is do you think those prejudices exist and can be alleviated by affirmative action? I do and talking with the woman of the previous generation I would say we've come a long way thanks to affirmative action.
Thanks for the discussion!
If biological reasons can determine if a person is fit for a particular job, let us start deciding the traits of people based on the gender, race and blood samples and assign jobs based on that. If you haven't, please watch the movie Gattaca.
So we should completely deny that there are differences between genders?
I strongly disagree that we should be denying reality.
My view was like yours before and the movie Gattaca was among the most important things that changed it. In short humans are far more complex and trying to say that a person may not be interested in software engineering just because the person is of specific gender is disservice to half the population and not helpful.
One time a woman working at a prominent NGO in human trafficking told me that prostitution was oppressive to the woman. I told her that although that may be the case some of the time, there are women out there doing it by choice. She got really angry at me and went on an emotional tirade.
It's definitely one of those "touchy" PC subjects where honest debate is difficult without being shamed and called "sexist".
- The memo was posted in an opt-in group for these types of discussions.
- The issue is very lopsided. I have personally never heard of someone being fired over saying much more offensive statements in the other direction (ie: men are dense / white people ruin everthing / etc). I would have no problem with a zero tolerance policy as long as it were evenly enforced.
Maybe I've just been exceptionally good at picking professional places to work at but I've never heard comments like the ones you've mentioned. Why not go to HR? Those are pretty strong statements.
My understanding is our harassment laws are pretty strong. During a sexual harassment compliance training at one of my companies, I learned that the fastest growing sexual harassment cases are men suing men. (If I remember it correctly) for things like feeling pressured to have acted more manly. And they win. The laws in this country are incredible and add enormously to the productivity we have in our companies.
We often spend more waking hours with our colleagues than our friends and family, forming strong bonds and friendships.
I've been lucky enough to work with intelligent people originating from many parts of the world, and have enjoyed stimulating discussions that include geo-political and social issues.
While there are a myriad of reasons why one could feel bad about facing a day in the office, I personally find sexism and harassment to be particularly heinous, and indicates weakness of character more than a lack of ability.
Something I worry about is the possibility of a work environment where the free discussion and conversation I mentioned above is inhibited. Especially one in which "acceptable" conversation is not politically neutral, but instead favouring progressive viewpoints exclusively.
Free discussion is just not appropriate at a work place - the line must be drawn somewhere and usually that means veering towards acting professional. There is ample opportunity to be yourself fully outside of this context.
Nothing has been more positive to me as a woman in tech than working in environments with professionalism. I got to focus on what I love to do, what I am best at. It works in the interest of companies too.
At a company like Google, it appears that discussion on internal forums is actually an internal cultural virtue. Google's innovation and evolution as a company has probably depended on that very openness that we the general public are getting a peek into through these leaks.
An article I read on Wired showed images of these discussions. Apparently very progressive viewpoints are welcomed on the internal channels there. It would seem that any viewpoints that run counter to that worldview, however, are gradually being eradicated by shaming and firing those with alternative views.
What's unfortunate is that with the actions that have been taken...I think everyone loses. Fuel has only been added to this fire on both sides.
None of this is new, especially when I discuss it with my mother and grandmother. Same story, different colors.
What I hope is that other woman continue to do what I did- ignore those people. Youll never convince them because the biological argument is impossible to disprove. The statistics are on their side. Now are the statistics due to social conditions, expectations, belief patterns, and women who simply want to avoid these discussions and intimidations - or are they from biology?
There is no hesitation from my life experience that it is the former. First woman was allowed in Harvard in the 60s. This is only just getting started but expect more of the same.
The memo's author outlined some gender differences, and offered suggestions based on these differences to make working at Google more appealing to women.
Here's the excerpt from Larry Summer's speech that the ignorant masses and agenda-driven feminists have misconstrued to confirm their biases and advance their agenda:
> "So my best guess, to provoke you, of what's behind all of this is that the largest phenomenon, by far, is the general clash between people's legitimate family desires and employers' current desire for high power and high intensity, that in the special case of science and engineering, there are issues of intrinsic aptitude, and particularly of the variability of aptitude, and that those considerations are reinforced by what are in fact lesser factors involving socialization and continuing discrimination. I would like nothing better than to be proved wrong, because I would like nothing better than for these problems to be addressable simply by everybody understanding what they are, and working very hard to address them."
He is not saying that women are biologically less capable of pursuing math and science than men.
[1] http://www.harvard.edu/president/speeches/summers_2005/nber....
"Any statement that perpetuates female stereotypes is sexist, even an innocuous joke (or even a misconstrued joke in someone else’s private conversation)"
"Prostitution is sexist against women" etc
Um wtf? No these are not appropriate in a work environment. If you want to have a place with meaningful controversial discussion that's not the work environment.
I'm a lady and I honestly would feel uncomfortable if people were discussing these things at work. I really could not care less what other people's opinions are on these issues but I know I'm there to do my job as best as I can no get siderailed into lengthy controversial and highly likely uncomfortable discussions.
Suggesting that Google needs to be a place to comfortably voice off your random ideas is pretty irrational. It really doesn't.
Anyway, what does that even look like tangibly? Unprofessional... uncomfortable. It would not result in people agreeing with each other more just becoming less likely to like one another.