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Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by nostrademons on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:11PM (#14959955)
I think you're partially right. The other half of the puzzle is negotiating leverage.

One of Warren Buffett's annual reports (I forget which year, but I think it was the late 1990s) had an interesting observation: inflation doesn't affect all firms equally. Instead, it pools where there is a competition bottleneck. If you are the monopoly provider in a market, you have complete and total ability to raise prices in response to your customers having more money available to pay. If you are in a very competitive market, then every time you try to raise prices, some other entrant undercuts you and your customers and suppliers capture the surplus instead.

The Fed, however, measures inflation based on a basket of goods bought by the "average" consumer. Most of these goods are in competitive markets: groceries and gas and consumer electronics. And so the measured inflation rate that the Fed uses to control the money supply significantly undercounts the true inflation rate, with much of the money injected into the economy pooling in differentiated industries like high finance, elite universities, health care, Google & Facebook, etc. From there, it doesn't circulate the way it should, because people in those industries need few goods that the average American produces. Instead, it goes into asset prices, as they try to buy up more future earning potential.

I've suspected that maybe a simple way to fix this would be with "helicopter" Bernanke's crazy idea: drop money out of helicopters. Maybe not literally (imagine the fights on the ground!), but perhaps the Fed could inject money into the economy at the bottom, through direct deposit into consumer's bank accounts or tax refunds, and then collect it from the top, through fees on banks. That way, the money is immediately spent, and so the true effect of the money injected is more easily measurable in the CPI.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by maxsilver on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:46PM (#14961146)
> measures inflation based on a basket of goods bought by the "average" consumer. Most of these goods are in competitive markets

> I've suspected that maybe a simple way to fix this would be (snip) to drop money out of helicopters.

Wouldn't a simple way to fix this, be to change the relative importance of the "basket of goods" so that it reflects what real people actually spend money on?

Because housing, healthcare, and daycare/education when totaled should probably be 60-75+% of that basket, since that's where most people's money actually goes. Based on this - https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cpi.pdf - the percentages the Fed currently uses seems far, far too low.

The cost of gasoline going up 50%, or the cost of laptops going up 50% is far less hurtful than say, the cost of rent going up 50%, or the cost of healthcare going up 50%. I suspect if we used realistic numbers for inflation cost calculations, we'd see the real rate is far higher than is currently claimed, which would help economists better understand why so many people are suffering so much under a "good" economy.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by nostrademons on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:01PM (#14961316)
The challenge is that this is non-uniform across social classes. The poor spend a large portion of their income on groceries, gas, rent, and basic necessities. The middle-class spend a large portion of their income on health care and education, which many poor people don't spend anything on because they can't afford it. The rich spend a large portion of their income on asset purchases like stocks and real estate.

The Fed already tries to adjust the basket of goods to reflect what real people spend their money on. The problem is that the average dollar is not reflective of the average person. Dollars are concentrated among the rich; that's what inequality means. The rich spend their money on asset purchases like buying stocks, real estate, and businesses. To my knowledge, asset prices are not included in the CPI at all. If all the money that the Fed pumps into the economy ends up being concentrated in Facebook and then is used to buy Whatsapp for $19B, that doesn't count as inflation at all. So they keep pumping money into the economy, it keeps going to the 1%, asset prices keep rising, and the rich get richer while the poor get nothing.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by utexaspunk on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:47PM (#14960425)
Our top marginal tax rate starts around $418k(single) to $470k (joint). It seems ridiculous to me that every dollar beyond that amount is taxed at the same rate, whether it's dollar 500k or dollar 500m. IMHO, we should have several more brackets, like for the top 0.25%, 0.1%, 0.01% and 0.001% of incomes, with the rates rising sharply. Tax the shit out of the ultra-rich and spread it around.
Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by zanny on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:06PM (#14960679)
Income taxes are a distraction. Bill Gates is not filing income tax on 40B worth of stock. Real wealth comes from owning assets that appreciate and pay dividends, and our capital gains tax rates are even less progressive than the income ones (there are only two capital gains tax brackets and they cap out less than half of income - which should then mean its no surprise people who get paid in income get poorer and people who profit off capital gains get richer).

If anything should be progressively taxed its individualized capital gains. It is simultaneously very healthy to incentivize everyone to invest a bit in capital, and extraordinarily detrimental to the health of civilization to let capital concentrate without any impediment.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by snarf21 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:22PM (#14960897)
I'm not sure I agree but in any case, I'd rather see removal of like kind exchange for stocks (and maybe other things too?). Constantly buying and selling doesn't add to our economy in any real way when it can be deferred forever. Tax a percentage of the gain on any transaction and use that money to fund programs. Let money have velocity and get taxed lots of times per year instead of zero.
Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by utexaspunk on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:14PM (#14960783)
True- Capital gains should just be counted as income, IMHO.
Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by nostrademons on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:10PM (#14961426)
It's really hard to do this on an administrative level with the way that the price mechanism currently works. Prices are set at the margin, based on the most recent transaction. If I decide I'm willing to pay $72,000 for a single share of Microsoft stock, then Microsoft stock will momentarily be worth $72k, at least until the next transaction, and Bill Gates will be 1000x richer on paper. Similarly, if I turn around and sell that one share for 1 cent, Microsoft's value (and the net worth of everyone who owns it) will momentarily be cut by 7200x.

When do you assess the tax? If it's at any predictable interval of time, it opens the market up to massive manipulation schemes where people crash their own stocks to avoid paying taxes and bid up their rivals so they'll be forced to owe a massive tax bill.

You could I guess take an average over time to avoid the manipulation efforts, but then you still run into the issue many dot-com paper millionaires faced, where they were assessed a tax bill based on the paper value of their options but when it came time to pay it, the stock wasn't worth enough money to cover the taxes.

That's why we have the current system, where capital gains are taxed as income (though at a lower rate), but only when you sell them. That's the only time when you can put a fair value on the asset being sold, when it's convertible into the currency you actually plan to pay the taxes with.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by zanny on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:12PM (#14962019)
You could tax capital gains as income at the time of realization of the gains.

IE, buy all the stock you want. It doesn't matter. The dividends you get, and any payout you get from selling those stocks (even for immediate reinvestment) count as income.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by utexaspunk on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:11PM (#14962014)
Right- what I'm saying is we keep taxing capital gains upon conversion to currency, but tax them the same as any other income.
Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by bcherny on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:53PM (#14960503)
I agree with that (you're talking about Piketty's direct redistribution), but there is a tinge of "tax the other guy more because he's making more than me and it's not fair and I'll never be in his bracket anyway so I won't have to deal with it" to your argument.
Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by utexaspunk on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:11PM (#14960754)
It's more like "tax the guy whose work is being disproportionately rewarded in comparison to everyone else". I wouldn't argue with the idea of a doctor making more than a dishwasher, or possibly even a good hedge fund manager making more than a doctor. But 1,000 times more? No way!
Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by jstanley on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:15PM (#14973154)
Fortunately, this isn't communism and you're not a dictator.

People aren't awarded money arbitrarily... Nobody will pay you more than you're worth. If a good hedge fund manager is able to make 1000x as much as a good doctor, he is worth 1000x as much as a good doctor, by definition, no matter how distasteful that might seem.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by bcherny on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @04:23PM (#14973219)
You and @utexaspunk may be talking about different things.

I believe @utexaspunk is saying that salary should be tied to the amount of social good you do.

You are saying that the market sets salaries based on how much value you create, as measured in dollars.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by NTDF9 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:08PM (#14960714)
>> it's not fair and I'll never be in his bracket anyway so I won't have to deal with it

And he wouldn't be in my bracket so he doesn't have to deal with struggles either.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by davidreiss on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @04:29PM (#14962232)
> Tax the shit out of the ultra-rich and spread it around.

That would be great but think of the difficulties. Firstly, which politicians would support it? Most politicians spend their time fundraising ( begging the wealthy for money ).

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/the-hum...

Can you imagine the future of such politicians?

Especially now that corporations can donate as much as they want?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_v._FEC

Secondly, the ultra-rich will simply move money/assets offshores in hidden accounts. A lot of them already do that to avoid paying taxes. If it were to increase, a lot more money will go underground.

Thirdly, citizenship is something that can be bought and sold in modern society. The ultra-rich will buy citizenship in countries with lower taxes and simply move their companies/assets there. Look at what the pharmaceutical industry has been doing the past 10 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_inversion

The problem is that the international world order is corrupt and the wealthy write the rules/laws. Even if there was a raise in taxes, they would add a loophole for the wealthy to bypass it.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by ehnto on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:09PM (#14961411)
> but perhaps the Fed could inject money into the economy at the bottom, through direct deposit into consumer's bank accounts or tax refunds

The Australian Government did just this during the Global Financial Crisis, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudd_Government_(2007%E2%80%93...

It included a lot of measures, such as an increase in infrastructure spending and tax cuts, but one of the most interesting was the $950 AUD outright cash payment to individuals earning less than $80,000 AUD a year.

Australia did not feel the Global Financial Crisis nearly as much as other countries, and it is argued that the stimulus package was a big part of that.

There are concerns that the stagnation of wage growth we are seeing now is our economy paying for the stimulus package but I am waiting for a thorough retrospective report to make comment.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by JamesBarney on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:28PM (#14960160)
How would you describe the "true" inflation rate if not by the what the average person buys?

It seems like you have a lot of different prices in the economy, and if all prices stay the same, except milk goes up 20% and yachts fall 20%. How much has inflation changed? You have to pick some way to weigh the prices. And it seems to me that the best way to do this is weigh them by how much the average consumer is spending on them.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by Retric on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:50PM (#14961189)
People still pay for hedge fund managers time, they just do this indirectly via 401k fees. Rather than look at some mythical 'the average person' you need to look at total spending because there is a lot of indirect spending going via corporations and the government.
Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by mizchief2 on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:25PM (#14960924)
I don't really support artificial cash injections into the system, but I do agree that if you are going to do that, doing so from the bottom vs. the top will create a greater lasting effect, or at least benefit more people in the short term after a major and sudden recession.

Imagine where we would be if instead of baling out the banks after 2008, letting those banks fail and forgiving the loans they held. Millions of Americans owning their houses free and clear as well a having an extra few thousand dollars a month to spend or save.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by resu_nimda on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:36PM (#14960273)
That sounds essentially like Basic Income, depending on how it's doled out. Especially with the rise of automation "taking all our jobs," it seems like some form of this is inevitable. But of course things will probably have to get much worse before our culture starts accepting the idea (despite the fact that statistically it will directly benefit most of the people).
Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by jpster on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:31PM (#14960988)
Some observers argue that basic income has been tried in the past and failed.

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/01/the-failure-of-a-pas...

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by resu_nimda on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:01PM (#14961321)
Interesting article. One key difference is that this was done before/during the Industrial Revolution, so it was probably too early. The amount of human labor it takes to provide basic needs for one human is an important factor. For example:

It was intended as an emergency measure to help the poor when grain prices had risen sharply due to meager harvests.

Today we can produce so much food we have to come up with creative ways to keep it valuable - subsidies, dumping it, etc. We've "lost" a ton of agriculture jobs since that experiment was tried, because we can do it with less people. Seems reasonable to transfer those gains back to the people instead of all of them going to the guy that owns the harvester.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by norea-armozel on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:00PM (#14960616)
So you're referring to the Cantillon(sp?) effect? Just asking for clarification.
Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by nostrademons on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @03:16PM (#14961484)
I'm unfamiliar with the Cantillon effect, but from a quick glance at Wikipedia and the Mises Wiki, it looks like he basically anticipated Friedman's monetarist theory a few centuries early? That's a little different; it doesn't touch on the differences in competitiveness between different industries (I guess there weren't really different industries in Cantillon's time), and instead is more concerned about the response of the balance of trade to changes in the money supply.
Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by patrickg_zill on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @01:46PM (#14960411)
What the Fed does is actually worse (and more dishonest): they deliberately make "hedonic" or "quality adjustment method" adjustments that push down the inflation rate even more.

I find/believe shadowstats.com to be more accurate than the gov't stats on inflation and unemployment.

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by SilasX on Tuesday August 08, 2017 @02:31PM (#14960984)
I keep bringing it up, since it's the most egregious use of that logic, the time that the Fed insisted inflation must be low because the new iPads have faster CPUs[1]. As if a better quality luxury good (whose faster CPU is almost entirely eaten by new bloat) somehow cancels out higher food, healthcare, education, and housing costs.

Interestingly, they never seem to adjust inflation upward because of product debasements (other than price per unit in a bundle), so that seems to bias the numbers.

[1] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-fed-dudley-ipad-idUSTR...

Re:Our Broken Economy, in One Simple Chart by candiodari on Wednesday August 09, 2017 @01:45PM (#14971728)
They are rich:

> Dudley tried to explain how the Fed sees things: Yes, food prices may be rising, but at the same time, other prices are declining. The Fed looks at core inflation, which strips out volatile food and energy costs, to get a better sense of where inflation may actually be heading.

Guess exactly when food and energy costs were declared volatile. If you thought "when they went up" you'd be right.

If you disregard those actual inflation is 5%.