News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by maehwasu on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:02AM (#14939782)
To quote the original manifesto would be to normalize hatred.
Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by philwelch on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:30AM (#14939882)
You're getting downvoted for now, but you bring up an interesting point that's worth making more explicit.

If some set of ideas is so repugnant that quoting it, even in a rebuttal, "normalizes hatred", then why try to rebut it at all? Shouldn't it be enough to simply use social norms to shame the author into submission without addressing his arguments? Nobody feels the need to write rebuttals against NAMBLA, because we as a society live within a consensus that pedophilia is wrong.

The usual response is that ideas like the ones expressed in the "manifesto" are still widespread enough that they need to be addressed. But if a set of beliefs is that widespread, then by definition, there isn't a consensus and social norm against them. As a result, you need to address these ideas straight-up, even if you personally find them repugnant.

To dismiss them as "hatred", unworthy of being quoted even in rebuttal, just means that you've giving up on convincing anyone else to your point of view. And at some level, that's fine. I personally choose to isolate myself from people who don't believe in things like vaccines or climate change because I don't have the patience to deal with them.

But if you want to actually change people's minds, you have to deal with the fact that some people hold opinions that you personally find repugnant, and you have to address those opinions in an intellectually honest way. That's the table stakes for writing any kind of rebuttal, and once you've bought into that, there's no reason not to go all the way. In their famous debates, Lincoln thoughtfully listened and responded to Douglas's points, he didn't just rant and rave about giving Douglas a podium to speak from "normalized hatred".

Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by smsm42 on Sunday August 06, 2017 @02:44AM (#14940090)
> Shouldn't it be enough to simply use social norms to shame the author into submission without addressing his arguments?

That's exactly what many people are trying to do. Fortunately, some are smarter than that.

It is very pleasant and convenient to declare dominating point of view the eternal truth and any challenge to it taboo. It is done a lot by a lot of people - disagree with them, and you not just disagreeing - you are a hateful bigot and a despicable worm of a person, worthy only of derision. And that works too, especially with good peer support. The only problem with it shaming is good at silencing, but is not so good at convincing. So if you are ok with people being afraid to talk about certain topics and challenge whatever ideas are in power - it works wonders. If you want people to actually get the point, get onboard and not just be afraid to say what they truly think - there's a bit more work needed.

Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by bmpafa on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:07AM (#14939796)
This seems a little melodramatic. And even if I bought that the 'original manifesto' was espousing 'hatred,' I'm not sure what 'normalizing it' means.

This logic seems an awful lot like a book-burning mentality.

Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by alexmat on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:05AM (#14939790)
If I quote Hitler in a debate about world war 2, am I normalizing the Holocaust?
Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by etchalon on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:12AM (#14939811)
It's a question of how you quote him. If you quote him to argue against him, especially if you do so in a reasonable, thoughtful way, you would be implying the initial statement or argument was reasoned, and thoughtful.

"Normalization" is the process by which we treat ludicrous things as not ludicrous, but debatable.

Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by TimTheTinker on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:25AM (#14939865)
Treating other people's opinions as ludicrous might work as a strategy to an extent, but in the long run that approach will only create further division and ostracism.

Tear apart the ideas with friendly, well-reasoned arguments, yes! Ideas are fair game. Fight fire with fire, not gasoline.

Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by alexmat on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:21AM (#14939852)
Everything is debatable. Even this.
Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by TimTheTinker on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:11AM (#14939810)
Buzzzzzz. Godwin's law.
[dead]
Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by TimTheTinker on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:36AM (#14939912)
Intended in fun only. Hope I didn't give offense :-)
Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by alexmat on Sunday August 06, 2017 @02:55AM (#14940124)
That was my first assumption, and none taken :)
Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by ngoldbaum on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:05AM (#14939793)
Yes
Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by alexmat on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:08AM (#14939798)
So everything is black and white now and we've lost all room for nuance and grey areas? Seems like that kind of environment would stifle the exploration of difficult subject matter.
Re:About This Googler's Manifesto by lol2143651 on Sunday August 06, 2017 @01:10AM (#14939807)
No, it's just that it is easier to shame dissidence than to try to rebut it.