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Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by gaius on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @05:05AM (#14909035)
legitimate national security concern, and the government steps in to provide protection

There are a LOT of far softer targets that go unprotected. A terrorist attack on a sewage plant for a major city would be far more devastating than knocking out a few websites.

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by peteretep on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @05:09AM (#14909051)
I feel like the point of the article we're commenting on is that AWS is far from "a few websites"
Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by gaius on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @05:17AM (#14909082)
You can live without Netflix much longer than you can without a flushing toilet, is the point I'm making. Yet we don't have armed guards patrolling the sewageworks... It's a matter of priority how finite security personnel are deployed.
Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by mgkimsal on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @06:22AM (#14909385)
"Yet we don't have armed guards patrolling the sewageworks"

There's probably a moderate amount of unseen security in larger areas surrounding water/sewage plants.

Also, we've dealt with regional natural disasters before. Drought, fire, flooding, etc - we have experience mobilizing resources and redistributing as needed.

We've never dealt with an extended outage of one or more AWS data centers for days at a time. How many govt/university systems would be unable to function because of direct or indirect dependencies on AWS-related services?

S3 going down for, let's say 4 days, would cause big havoc on so many projects and systems I know of.

I'm pretty sure most people have no clue how much of their data and systems functionality is reliant on AWS-related services.

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by kalleboo on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @05:39AM (#14909202)
How about whatever is running on AWS GovCloud?

Water outages happen often enough - they distribute water manually with tanker trucks. When sewage is overwhelmed it overflows into a river and they tell people to not go for a swim. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanitary_sewer_overflow

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by sargun on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @03:21PM (#14913730)
GovCloud has stuff that would be bad if it goes down, but most institutions that use it have a DR plan.
Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by fenwick67 on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @02:00PM (#14913030)
If AWS went down hard, it would be more than just "I can't watch Netflix".

Some people wouldn't be able to do their computer work, send receive emails, others might not receive their paychecks or be able to pay bills.

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by groby_b on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @03:22PM (#14913745)
That still ranks lower than "sewage treatment gone". Maslow's pyramid still applies.

The sewage plant hits both physiological needs and safety needs (it's a pretty dire health threat quickly). AWS has weak tendrils to financial safety, but mostly affects layers above that.

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by ianai on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @03:54PM (#14914028)
The old historical lesson applies. People will say they're rebelling for various reasons. But at the end of the day it's for land, water, or food.
Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by dx034 on Thursday August 03, 2017 @08:54AM (#14919090)
Receiving your paycheck could be worse. There are ways to deal with water outages. Worst case you let sewers overflow into rivers, as discussed in another comment. If salaries of large companies remain unpaid this would be far more severe for a lot of people.
Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by unclebucknasty on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @02:41PM (#14913401)
>would be more than just "I can't watch Netflix".

And, I think even more than we can imagine. It's one thing to count the number of services that are direct customers/dependents of AWS, and we really don't know how deep that goes.

But, add to that the non-AWS based services that directly or indirectly rely on AWS-based services.

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by arethuza on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @05:27AM (#14909136)
I used to work at a company that had a large cage in a local data center - one of the other cages in the same room was apparently for the local police force (we weren't supposed to know this!).

It wouldn't surprise me if those police systems have moved, or are moving, to Azure or AWS data centers.

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by dx034 on Thursday August 03, 2017 @08:56AM (#14919098)
Police would probably still work fine without data centers for a few days. As long as they can communicate and 911 works, they can do most of their job in the short run.

It's much worse if benefits or paychecks don't get paid. For many people that means that they won't be able to buy groceries as soon as a few days later. Not the standard HN crowd, but many people depend on regular paychecks and can be in trouble if it comes even one day late.

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by gaius on Thursday August 03, 2017 @04:44PM (#14923699)
As long as they can communicate

Funny thing with the police, in the 60s there was flooding and they couldn't coordinate a response, so radio amateurs had to step in and provide comms. Those enthusiasts are still around under the codename RAYNET. The police eventually got their act together and invested in a system called TETRA which is self-contained and independent of any other infrastructure so they would never be caught with their pants down again.

Now they've ditched TETRA to save money and they just run over the 4G network like anyone else...

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by nucleardog on Thursday August 03, 2017 @06:36PM (#14924599)
But if you attack a massive sewage treatment plant and completely disable it, you can effect maybe... 10 million people, if we're being generous?

If you hit AWS, just Netflix alone is going to effect 100 million people. There are definitely a few payroll providers that are going to have some reliance, so people all over are going to stop receiving their paycheques. Many businesses will be temporarily disabled.

On a national level we've got a lot more eggs concentrated in the AWS baskets than we do the sewage treatment baskets.

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by martyvis on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @03:19PM (#14913719)
The thing is the dispatch system for those security guards may well be running on AWS or other cloud - once they become uberized, even more likely.
Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by dalbasal on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @08:29AM (#14909955)
To the extent that this article is correct, financial services would be affected.
Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by BurningFrog on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @01:05PM (#14912400)
Knocking out all of AWS is very different from knocking out a single data center.
Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by myusernameisok on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @02:07PM (#14913099)
Especially because AWS regions are broken up into multiple availability zones (data centres in the same area). So taking out a single data centre won't do much if the AWS customers have correctly designed their systems for high-availability (ie having redundant instances in other AZs/regions with their data backed up elsewhere).
Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by matthewrudy on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @02:18PM (#14913198)
A single availability zone can be spread across many physical data centres.

According to this rackspace article, the largest AZ has 5 data centres.

https://blog.rackspace.com/aws-101-regions-availability-zone...

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by myusernameisok on Thursday August 03, 2017 @03:01AM (#14917521)
Take this for what it is - I'm a software developeer who works in the cloud, not a cloud expert.

The abstraction behind AZs is what every AZ counts for at least 1 data centre. So for every region there is at least 2 AZs, and every AZ means at least 1 data centre (or 5 in your link).

This just means it's harder to take out a whole region by destroying individual data cetnres. Since most regions consist of 2-5 AZ, and AZs consist of 5+ data centres, that means destroying dozens of data centres.

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by vinkelhake on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @02:22PM (#14913225)
That's a big if. The S3 outage in February this year showed that there are a lot of sites that aren't designed for this.
Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by myusernameisok on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @02:58PM (#14913559)
The S3 outage was across the whole US-EAST-1 region, not just one data centre.

I know my company and a few others that are redundant within a region (ie if one AZ goes down), but not if a whole region goes down.

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by unclebucknasty on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @02:37PM (#14913365)
This all assumes that "taking out" datacenters is a physical/hardware operation.

When you widen the potential attack surface to include software vulnerabilities, unauthorized access, process flaws and other "soft" vectors, a much wider--possibly coordinated--attack that is potentially far more crippling can be imagined.

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by dx034 on Thursday August 03, 2017 @09:00AM (#14919122)
The question is how load would behave if more than 1 AZ fails for several days. If 2 out of 5 AZs in US-East are down for a week, everyone would distribute to the other 3 (and probably on all three to be sure). I'm not sure if they have enough spare capacity to handle that. The AZ model is designed for single failures and failures that are a few hours, not days.

Of course just speculation, I have no knowledge about DR plans at Amazon.

Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by TrickyRick on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @07:06AM (#14909564)
Granted it was only for a few hours but they had a huge outage in February this year (https://aws.amazon.com/message/41926/). This affected pretty much all us-east customers (Which are most AWS customers) so it should be possible to extrapolate from there. Although I think a lot of customers learned the importance of replication that day so the next outage might not be that bad.
Re:Is Amazon's cloud service too big to fail? by dwyerm on Wednesday August 02, 2017 @05:16PM (#14914743)
I get what you're saying.

However, we actually have evidence that a sewage plant for a major western city can suffer a sudden catastrophic failure[1] and it won't even make it above the fold.

[1] https://projects.seattletimes.com/2017/west-point/