News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The digital native is a myth by freehunter on Sunday July 30, 2017 @10:29AM (#14886082)
As someone who has worked helpdesk before, all of those things are widely prevalent in every generation. Old people, middle aged people, and young people alike all google "Google" and then google "Youtube" to get to a video. Everyone sucks at logging in. Everyone finds a way that works for them and doesn't know any alternatives.

The real answer is, computers suck. Seriously, computers are effing awful machines, all developers are hackers, and the only reason things haven't changed is because we constantly lie to ourselves that we're okay with the world.

Passwords suck, no one can remember them, we have way too many of them to remember, and every damn site needs its own special password requirements. And on top of that every site needs its own username requirements too, so there's two things to forget. And email is the universal password, so you want to make sure you use a good password there, but you never really log into your email, do you? The password is saved. So when you get logged out somehow, good luck remembering the password.

And don't get me started on keyboard shortcuts. At least Windows is consistent, quick question: what's the keyboard shortcut on a Mac to go to the beginning of your current line? Ah trick question, it's different for every god damned application! And some applications don't even allow for that without highlighting the entire line!

There's a reason "digital natives" are great at using phones and choose to use them more. iOS and Android were built from scratch and could learn from all of the mistakes of the old systems. In the process, they came up with a ton of their own mistakes (3D touch and long press each do different things? Really? Also TouchWiz is just a bad idea), but consistency and focus are major wins here.

Computers suck and people get scared. Only having one app on the screen at once, only having one way to do things... that's what people like. It's not perfect, but man computers suck. Anything that makes them suck less is a huge win.

Re:The digital native is a myth by FLUX-YOU on Sunday July 30, 2017 @10:43AM (#14886136)
>The real answer is, computers suck. Seriously, computers are effing awful machines

It's easy to brush off the millions of things that computers allow us to do that we couldn't do before because of some terrible UIs.

Computers suck, the internet sucks, but the pony express and cargo boats sucked worse. I can get a message across the world in about a second. No applause for that though. No praise for the things we can now do. We're just too eager to find things we wish we could do, and blame our current technology for not knowing our dreams.

Re:The digital native is a myth by freehunter on Sunday July 30, 2017 @11:19AM (#14886282)
Yeah I covered that in the “we constantly lie to ourselves” part. Computers have enabled us to do wonderful things. Like criticize people we don’t know for using software in a different way than we do. Yet we, as the creators of this software, have not only enabled them to use it “incorrectly”, we’ve actively encouraged it by saying things like “it’s not the computer’s fault it doesn’t know your dreams”.

If only those pesky users would just read the source code, they’d understand why this site works when you put www in front of it but doesn’t work without it! And if they want it changed, well it’s open source! They should send a pull request!

Re:The digital native is a myth by ketralnis on Sunday July 30, 2017 @07:38PM (#14888487)
So how do we fix it? If we can't teach them the spells, how do we make the magic easier?
Re:The digital native is a myth by copperx on Sunday July 30, 2017 @12:57PM (#14886787)
> what's the keyboard shortcut on a Mac to go to the beginning of your current line? Ah trick question, it's different for every god damned application!

It's Control-A in every app!

Re:The digital native is a myth by raverbashing on Sunday July 30, 2017 @06:30PM (#14888210)
Or Cmd-Left

(or Up if it's a one line text field)

Re:The digital native is a myth by copperx on Sunday July 30, 2017 @09:29PM (#14888924)
Sure, but ain't nobody got time for getting the right hand out of the home row. Emacs keybindings everywhere is one of the things that keeps me using OS X. As a bonus, remapping Caps Lock to Control like a proper UNIX keyboard is a few clicks away.
Re:The digital native is a myth by lobut on Thursday August 03, 2017 @09:45AM (#14919493)
What's funny is that Microsoft Outlook on the Mac does not abide by that shortcut. It does a select-all.
Re:The digital native is a myth by blacksmith_tb on Sunday July 30, 2017 @12:13PM (#14886556)
I am sympathetic, to a point - mainly because it is possible to improve interfaces, there's no physical constraint preventing that (there's also no guarantee that a different interface will work equally well for all users, of course). But I also would suggest it's reasonable to expect a certain level of basic understanding. Imagine someone pumping gas into their radiator, because the two holes were the same size. We don't design cars to prevent that, but we also don't expect people to make that mistake.
Re:The digital native is a myth by yellowapple on Sunday July 30, 2017 @11:52AM (#14886454)
"what's the keyboard shortcut on a Mac to go to the beginning of your current line? Ah trick question, it's different for every god damned application!"

I haven't seen any macOS applications that don't accept Ctrl-A (or any other Emacs-style shortcuts, while we're at it). Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough.

Re:The digital native is a myth by ivm on Sunday July 30, 2017 @04:37PM (#14887673)
Mac keyboard shortcuts could fail in some non-native apps but they work in everything Cocoa-based.
Re:The digital native is a myth by Pica_soO on Sunday July 30, 2017 @12:03PM (#14886512)
I think a consistent history-rewind button for every app, would take a lot of anxiety about breaking software out of this and allow for people to experiment. Oh, you rearranged every single button in excell outside the screen- history button takes you back to the start of this.

After all, we do that too with git and containers.

Re:The digital native is a myth by ghthor on Sunday July 30, 2017 @10:14PM (#14889061)
To do this we need to start modeling our applications using state based design. Redux is a good push from engineering in this direction. Elm is also great for this idea as well. The most important part of your boring business application is the applications state and the users state. Take the time to model it and how to move it forward in time with actions.
Re:The digital native is a myth by saalweachter on Sunday July 30, 2017 @10:19PM (#14889075)
The trick is that you need multiple histories to make that work, or git-style history management.

If you broke your editor's buttons / view settings, but also typed a dozen pages, you don't want to undo your typing to undo your settings changes.

Re:The digital native is a myth by subway on Sunday July 30, 2017 @10:48AM (#14886164)
Computers suck and people get scared. Only having one app on the screen at once, only having one way to do things...

One way to do everything robs people of their ability to think.

Re:The digital native is a myth by freehunter on Sunday July 30, 2017 @11:21AM (#14886287)
There are things people should have to think about and there are things people should just be able to do without effort. I don’t want my doctor having to spend brain power figuring out how to use his new software, I want him to use is entire brain to diagnose my disease. Programmers should think. Users should just do. If users have to think about how to use their software, the developer failed at their job.
Re:The digital native is a myth by khedoros1 on Sunday July 30, 2017 @01:14PM (#14886864)
> If users have to think about how to use their software, the developer failed at their job.

Under that definition, I don't think that there's ever been a successful developer. I'd set the bar more at the ecosystem level. Once a user learns how an ecosystem works, the software in it should be as intuitive as the complexity of their tasks allow. Anything more seems like making perfect the enemy of good.

Re:The digital native is a myth by vacri on Monday July 31, 2017 @12:58AM (#14889561)
This means that any software with any learning curve at all is bad software, which is clearly not true.
Re:The digital native is a myth by vacri on Sunday July 30, 2017 @09:30PM (#14888927)
> The real answer is, computers suck. Seriously, computers are effing awful machines

No, they're amazing machines and don't suck. They just don't meet our arbitrarily high expectations.

Re:The digital native is a myth by digi_owl on Monday July 31, 2017 @12:02AM (#14889377)
And oddly enough, I find that they suck more as developers tries to make them suck less...
Re:The digital native is a myth by TheOtherHobbes on Monday July 31, 2017 @05:19AM (#14890512)
Developer and user definitions of "suck" are completely different.

But [thread] OP is correct. UIs absolutely do suck.

The proof is that after fifty years of UI design, there's still no such thing as a standard system/technique/anything for assessing the quality, reliability, and effectiveness of a user interface.

There's been almost no effective research into cataloguing the most common kinds of user error OR developer error and designing systems that minimise those errors.

There's a lot of tribal and religious noise about operating systems and languages, but virtually none of it is based on empirical research.

Re:The digital native is a myth by mrcarrot on Sunday July 30, 2017 @11:37AM (#14886371)
> ...quick question: what's the keyboard shortcut on a Mac to go to the beginning of your current line? Ah trick question, it's different for every god damned application! And some applications don't even allow for that without highlighting the entire line!

I realise this isn't really the crux of your post, and I broadly agree with you that computers still suck. But the answer to this question is CMD + left arrow. I have no idea what applications you're using where this doesn't work.

Re:The digital native is a myth by copperx on Sunday July 30, 2017 @12:58PM (#14886794)
I thought it was Control-A ?
Re:The digital native is a myth by __david__ on Sunday July 30, 2017 @07:46PM (#14888523)
Only since MacOS X 1.0 (when it inherited a bunch of Emacs keys from NeXTSTEP). The other keystroke is from before then.
Re:The digital native is a myth by oliv__ on Sunday July 30, 2017 @08:11PM (#14888635)
Computers suck as much as whoever is using them.

The opposite is true too.