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Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by throwawayjava on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @09:41AM (#14856092)
As a scout I agreed to it vacuously. No God, no obligation, and it's not that hard to fulfill a vacuous obligation. I'm sure that's not what they meant, but I figured "be friendly" and "tell kids that homosexuals are unclean rapists" [1,2,3] were also obviously contradictory in spirit.

If they get political cop-outs from their pledges, then so do I.

[1] unclean: "We believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the requirement in the Scout Oath that a Scout be morally straight and in the Scout Law that a Scout be clean in word and deed, and that homosexuals do not provide a desirable role model for Scouts.” https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-699.ZO.html

[2] rapists: E.g., http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/gordon-klingenschmitt-bo...

[3] To their credit, BSA has since modernized its policy and, hopefully, this remains a minority voice. But still, a large and vocal minority IME.

Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by analog31 on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @10:22AM (#14856362)
So far as I know, Girl Scouts is a separate, and secular, organization. And, there are unofficially "tolerant" boy scout troops.
Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by thatgerhard on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @09:35AM (#14856050)
This is because the boy scouts of America is a Mormon initiative.
Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by TallGuyShort on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @10:43AM (#14856568)
In terms of finances I think they're the biggest by a narrow margin, but they make up 15% of the membership (a huge chunk of which doesn't even participate), recently withdrew from both sponsoring the Varsity and Venturer programs, have all sorts of exceptions to the way they run the program that no one else does, and a majority supports withdrawing entirely, but sure - let's blame Mormons for a stance the organization had before they even partnered up.
Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by pyroinferno on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @09:32AM (#14856029)
It's "bigotry" for a company founded on religious principles to be religious?
Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by throwawayjava on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @09:44AM (#14856111)
FWIW there's a huge difference between "sorry, but this is a safe space for religious people" and "if you're not a religious person then you can't be a good American".

I don't think anyone has a problem with the former. But yes, the latter is... worthy of criticism, especially from engineers and scientists who pay attention to things like empirical counter-examples. Maybe not bigoted, but also clearly false.

Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by leephillips on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @10:10AM (#14856282)
In case this is a serious question, I'll answer you: no, of course not. But do you feel that the import of the statement I quoted is merely that the BSA is a religious organization?
Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by gorkonsine on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @11:58AM (#14857342)
>I don't know any scientists or engineers who would be willing to sign on to this kind of bigotry

I guess you don't know many engineers, or you only know software engineers in Silicon Valley or something. Engineers, in my experience, and especially the non-software kind, tend to be extremely religious. In fact, studies have found that many middle eastern terrorists come from engineering backgrounds. The engineers I've worked with have been overwhelmingly conservative, and frequently religious. (Those that weren't conservative were usually libertarian.)

Yeah, your typical Millennial programmer in the Bay Area probably isn't religious at all, but hang around some 40+ mechanical or electrical engineers and you'll see an entirely different crowd, with probably a lot of Trump supporters.

Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by leephillips on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @12:42PM (#14857793)
We've probably encountered a different engineering demographic. But it's not just a question of being religious. Would the religious engineers of your acquaintance say that unbelievers are incapable of being the best kind of citizens, by virtue of their lack of belief in the supernatural? That's what the Boy Scouts say.
Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by gorkonsine on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @02:47PM (#14858993)
I haven't asked any that particular question, but I see no reason to think that many religious people, engineers or not, would answer that they believe that unbelievers are incapable of being the best kind of citizens. That's a pretty normal kind of belief for religious Americans really.
Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by leephillips on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @03:11PM (#14859203)
I suppose you're right, that this kind of bigotry is commonly considered acceptable among believers. I know more scientists well than engineers. Even the ones who are Christians would be appalled by the Boy Scout Principle.
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Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by throwawayjava on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @10:32AM (#14856463)
> It a requirement for becoming an adult leader within the BSA

Religious belief is also sometimes required to become an Eagle Scout. See e.g.,

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/10/03/belief-in-god-s...

"We have all likely heard horror stories of boys being asked in their Eagle Scout board of review about how they have done their “duty to God,” only to have the youth say they don’t believe in God. Equally disappointing is the example I heard of recently of an Eagle Scout who publicly admitted that he simply lied when asked about “duty to God” in his board of review."

The position that "you can define god however you want!" is common, and I'm not really sure how that position is any less dishonest than just straight up lying about believing in God. It's also not the case that you can always take on a leadership position -- any leadership position -- in the scouts without belief in God. There seems to be a myriad of opinions and practices, ranging from openly accepting to openly hostile. But the assertion that you can be always be a scout -- let alone take on leadership positions -- while being openly atheist doesn't match my experience.

> As a former scout (an Eagle Scout)

As a former scout who dropped out well before becoming an Eagle Scout in large part because my religious beliefs were unambiguously unwelcome locally, and IMO also nationally, I disagree.

Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by swagtricker on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @10:37AM (#14856503)
> As a former scout who dropped out well before becoming an Eagle Scout in large part because my religious beliefs were unambiguously unwelcome locally, and IMO also nationally, I disagree.

Sorry to hear that was your experience. I started scouting in the midwest (where everyone assumed you were a christian weather you were or not) and moved to the Seattle area (where nobody cared). I never had anyone shove a bible in my face and demand I witness.

Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by softawre on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @12:03PM (#14857413)
> The position that "you can define god however you want!" is common

It's very common in 12 step methods. The text uses the term "higher power" - I think most people have their God as their higher power, others use their sober self, or something else they care greatly about.

Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by leephillips on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @10:17AM (#14856323)
I am fully informed, having read the entire Declaration and all the rest of the list of requirements. Further, I don't see where you have "corrected" me. I never said that the Principle insists on Christianity. I also don't see how an "athiest", friendly or not, can be a merit badge counselor, unless he agrees that he can not grow into the "best kind of citizen," or that somehow he can remain an atheist, yet recognize his "duty to God" nevertheless.
Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by swagtricker on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @10:30AM (#14856441)
You conflated written scouting leadership position requirements with merit badge counselor requirements. They're different requirement sets as cited.
Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by detaro on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @10:41AM (#14856546)
Your sources do not seem to support your claim. To quote your last link:

To register with the Boy Scouts of America, a potential merit badge counselor must complete the BSA's Adult Application form

To quote from that form, as linked from the same page:

Excerpt From Declaration of Religious Principle The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to these precepts from the Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to register

and the applicant explicitly signs that I have read and affirm that I accept the Declaration of Religious Principle

Re:Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges by leephillips on Wednesday July 26, 2017 @11:02AM (#14856740)
I conflated nothing. The reply to you by detaro will help you become less misinformed, if you take the trouble to read it.