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Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by tptacek on Monday July 24, 2017 @07:50PM (#14843810)
You can't even sell gift certificates on the Internet without having built a business that will probably have criminals as a plurality constituency. The idea that a Bitcoin mixer was most used for legitimate purposes is pretty hard to swallow.

As a positive claim, rather than a normative one, it has to be possible to observe that services like this have their great practical impact on criminals. Making such a positive claim can't "hurt the cause of privacy". If the cause of privacy wants to be taken seriously, it will need to grow up and stop demanding that people accept false sets of facts.

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by belorn on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:01AM (#14846268)
At least it doesn't have as bad ratio of criminal vs legal use as email services. A email address normally receive several scams, spam, and hacking attempts for each legit email, and its only thanks to client side filters that the illegitimate use case of email don't overwhelm the legitimate.

Would you say that the industry that use bitcoin mixers is bigger and involve more illicit money than the spam/scam/malware industry that use email?

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by Anderkent on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @07:00AM (#14846737)
Because for email the benefit for legitimate user is greater than the benefit for the spammer/scammer/malware emails. Whereas for bitcoin mixers the benefit to legitimate users is smaller than the benefit to the thief/scammer.
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by belorn on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @08:01AM (#14847039)
I see this kind of argument/counter argument popping up from such different topics such as cashless society, tor, BitTorrent, cryptography bans and so on.

To have a honest discussion, how would we measure the benefits and drawbacks of a bitcoin mixers? One way to measure the drawbacks is to look at how much money is involved in the by criminals, but I suspect that the collective of criminals that use email to conduct crime is bigger and involve much more money than those that use bitcoin mixers, so it seems we need to also measure the benefits. How would we do that? Redirecting the question to researchers and have them conduct anonymous surveys of legitimate users of such service?

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by bykovich2 on Monday July 24, 2017 @08:19PM (#14843981)
If you run an online store that doesn't validate credit cards correctly you will become an API for fraudsters to check the validity of Visa numbers.
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by _-david-_ on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:00PM (#14844182)
What is the proper way to validate credit cards?
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by ploxiln on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:53PM (#14844464)
There's no good way. You have to use heuristics. CC companies won't help you.

https://www.candyjapan.com/behind-the-scenes/how-i-got-credi...

This is pretty much why I think credit cards are unfairly one-sided, and is a big advantage to crypto-currencies like bitcoin. CC are as easy as possible for the consumer, but it's up to the business to guess if the consumer is authorized to use it, and there's no good way to be sure. Some people are going to be unfairly shafted. Oh and credit card networks can do things like shut off access to WikiLeaks if the US government asks them to. The system mostly works for most people in western countries - but it is very flawed.

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by throw238513 on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @12:07AM (#14845048)
MaxMind's minFraud[0] was the most popular last time I checked. You give them the credit card info, the IP of the user, their email etc[1] and $0.005 (per credit card transaction you want them to check) and they tell you the probability that it's fraud.

At my company we use Stripe as our payment processor, which has their own fraud detection called Radar. But still, a bit under .1% of our transactions are fraudulent.

Credit card fraud is honestly a great business, even if they know you're doing it, the police wont do anything, and the merchant has to cover the cost and pay $15 for the privilege of being defrauded.

[0] https://www.maxmind.com/en/minfraud-services

[1] https://minfraud.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

Sorta related, turns out there are anti-fraud services for fraudsters https://krebsonsecurity.com/2013/11/anti-fraud-service-for-f...

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by column on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @04:49AM (#14846213)
isn't this the kind of service that will flag a legitimate user behind a VPN as a potential threat because his ip has been used in multiple transactions? Should a user switch off his VPN to do shopping?
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by GuB-42 on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @11:37AM (#14848542)
If that VPN IP range is known to be used by fraudsters then yes, for good reasons. And if your VPN is affordable and "privacy oriented" there is a very good chance that a bunch of crooks are going to use it.

Professional VPNs are probably fine.

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by fweespeech on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @01:01AM (#14845219)
> What is the proper way to validate credit cards? A) If you are asking that question, you really should use something like https://stripe.com/radar

But assuming you don't want to:

1) Validate against the standard checksum formulas (this catches legit typos)

1b) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_algorithm

1c) Regardless of what happens next, send an order confirmation and play dead.

1d) If it fails any of the following steps, send a politely worded "issue with the order" e-mail and to contact you (after 24 hours). Use a reason that sounds generic rather than credit card specific.

2) Check GeoIP and compare against potentially geographic space. (this catches VPNs, etc. For instance, shipping to a US freight forwarder from a Russian IP is likely highly probably fraud. The customer can call/e-mail you if they get caught in this.)

2b) Services like https://www.maxmind.com/en/minfraud-services qualify for this.

3) Check address locations against known US freight forwarders / PO boxes / UPS Stores / etc. Force additional customer verification, like for IP addresses.

4) To validate repeat card usage, fingerprint cards that were successfully charged and you didn't receive a chargeback after the window closes:

https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/63248/hashing-a...

You can use Stripe/Braintree tokens or your own implementation.

5) If it fails step 4:

5a) Run whatever business heuristics/signals that might be true for your customer base. Too specific to get into really.

5b) Actually charge the card and see what happens. If its declined by the credit card company, send the generic contact e-mail.

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by hibikir on Monday July 24, 2017 @10:45PM (#14844709)
If you have a brick and mortar business, probably nothing. If you are selling on the internet, and, probably put a step between you and an old school credit card processor that will do that checking for you, professionally. There's just way too much money in credit card fraud to have anything that even resembles good online protection as a small business.

Some fancy online card processors will do this for you automatically. Otherwise, there's companies that do this logic for you, and work across processors.

Ultimately, we should all get out of the business of transferring money by just entering credit card numbers, which are easy t copy. Many parts of the world are already moving to systems that require 2fa, and fraud rates drop like a rock. Good luck convincing US banks and online retailers to change everything to do this though.

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by Styn on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @05:18AM (#14846324)
Yeah, where I'm from (Belgium) 2fa is the industry standard by now, and fraud cases were reduced immensely when a previous employer of mine made the switch several years ago. But like you mentioned, this is not just up to devs in most cases...
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by angus-prune on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @12:35PM (#14849168)
How does 2fa work in practice for credit card payments?
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by Symbiote on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @01:42PM (#14850010)
Both my Danish and British accounts send an SMS for some purchases, usually only larger ones. I have to type it into a box on a form.

They used to use a password, but that risks people putting their bank password into some dodgy shopping site.

VISA's implementation: https://www.visaeurope.com/making-payments/verified-by-visa/

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by Styn on Friday July 28, 2017 @03:44AM (#14872668)
Bit of a late reply but almost all companies use something called a digipass, you insert your card and input a challenge code and your pin. https://i.imgur.com/10OChcv.jpg
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by cft on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:43PM (#14844411)
Write risk algorithms that return false negatives to the suspected carders in your logic, before you proxy card data to the processor. If you don't, you will soon hit 1% chargeback threshold and your account will suffer.
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by castis on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:27PM (#14844329)
To just validate the numbers themselves, you can use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_algorithm

Beyond that, I'm not sure what that person is talking about.

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by meesterdude on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:48PM (#14844443)
FYI that's not enough. That may act as a form validation, but does not verify that the card is active and able to be used. Anyone can run the Luhn against a card # - but thieves have known CC numbers and want to verify they can be used. As a merchant you have to be somewhat on top of your orders and cancel any "suspicious" ones to prevent chargebacks.
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by castis on Monday July 24, 2017 @10:13PM (#14844550)
Well aware, thanks. I only ever stated that the Luhn algorithm would validate just the numbers.
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by JohnTHaller on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @12:07AM (#14845047)
> you will become an API for fraudsters to check the validity of Visa numbers.

Anyone accepting donations via PayPal

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by Cthulhu_ on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @03:28AM (#14845823)
It's PayPal that needs to check that stuff then. And even then fraud can occur to one's service.
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by JohnTHaller on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @06:13PM (#14852350)
Except they refuse to. So you see a constant stream of $0.01 to $0.03 donations. You have to manually refund every one of them out of your own PayPal balance or you get hit with a $25 chargeback fee.
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by ikeboy on Monday July 24, 2017 @08:19PM (#14843984)
>You can't even sell gift certificates on the Internet without having built a business that will probably have criminals as a plurality constituency.

This is not correct, in my experience - largest constituency for many gift cards is merchandise resellers. I myself have purchased in the mid 5 figure range of gift cards and I've met people who've spent in the 7 figure range.

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by tedunangst on Monday July 24, 2017 @08:42PM (#14844099)
How do you know anything about other buyers just because you buy a lot?
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by ikeboy on Monday July 24, 2017 @08:49PM (#14844135)
I know large gc sellers and I've sold a decent amount myself. I know the gross margins some of the exchanges run on, and the fraud rate is low.
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by mustacheemperor on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:00PM (#14844180)
Is it a plurality of users, not volume? Does the average criminal sell a fraction of the amount a top seller does?
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by ikeboy on Monday July 24, 2017 @09:07PM (#14844210)
There's a community of small time sellers. I don't believe the overall fraud rate is that significant.
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by dyim on Monday July 24, 2017 @08:29PM (#14844021)
Shameless plug, but one of my old college friends sells gift cards at scale: https://support.priceyak.com/hc/en-us/articles/203465699-Buy...

If you're in the Amazon world I'm sure you know of them, but if not I'd be happy to put you in touch (contact info in profile)

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by ikeboy on Monday July 24, 2017 @08:38PM (#14844073)
Yes, I've used PY.

For volume gift cards, it's all about the discount. There's no way I would buy gc at no discount and have to pay cash, as PY offers last I checked.

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by mtgx on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @06:30AM (#14846596)
Couldn't you say exactly the same thing for encryption in the early days of the Internet? Heck, governments are still doing that today, even though the benefits for "honest businesses" are obvious.
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by lmm on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @07:13AM (#14846780)
Encryption for purchase forms on the Internet made a lot of sense even in the early days - a lot of early Internet businesses were genuinely worried that people wouldn't be willing to send their credit card information over the Internet.
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by jstanley on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @04:44AM (#14846184)
Just because some technology has bad uses as well as good uses doesn't mean that technology shouldn't exist.

If it ceases to exist, the good uses disappear too.

Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by softwarelimits on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @02:53AM (#14845679)
Just imagine selling weapons would be legal! Crazy!
Re:Largest Bitcoin mixer, Bitmixer.io, closes down by omginternets on Tuesday July 25, 2017 @07:53AM (#14846999)
>The idea that a Bitcoin mixer was most used for legitimate purposes is pretty hard to swallow.

Indeed it is. Could you please elaborate?