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Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by derefr on Monday July 17, 2017 @01:18AM (#14785856)
My question is, which of those "interesting ideas" didn't end up in Windows NT? Is there anything other OSes (Linux, ⋆BSD, macOS) could learn from VMS, that they can't better learn from WNT?
Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by protomyth on Monday July 17, 2017 @01:49AM (#14785977)
Clustering - OpenVMS does clustering amazingly well. that is one thing that NT, Linux, and the BSDs could learn. Although, DragonFly BSD is working on the file system clustering with HAMMER 2.
Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by wogna on Monday July 17, 2017 @02:15AM (#14786068)
Could you elaborate on how it did things better than the common cluster file systems of today? (OCFS2, Hadoop, Ceph, etc.)
Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by valarauca1 on Monday July 17, 2017 @03:07AM (#14786269)
Okay so OpenVMS wasn't just FileSystem clustering.

It was physical PC clustering. So I group of networked computers appeared like 1 physical computer. While a MESO or DCOS can do this today, they don't offer durability.

On OpenVMS clusters if the machine running a job physically explodes you don't lose data. RAM and process state is network synchronized.

This allows for rolling upgrades. Your cluster can update and reboot 1 box at a time, but your apps never actually stop, TCP connections are never dropped ETC. For large corporations who've gotten used to these features they're awesome to hold onto.

Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by MrBuddyCasino on Monday July 17, 2017 @03:43AM (#14786414)
"RAM and process state is network synchronized."

Is this as slow as it sounds?

Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by staofbur on Monday July 17, 2017 @05:07AM (#14786751)
Yes. I saw the last days of a VMS cluster (actual VAX not Alpha) system being ported to windows/vb/com/asp. The speed difference was actually incredible. It ended up on a mediocre single Xeon 500MHz P3.

At the end of the day, the windows based system was just as reliable as far as nines went and tens of times faster.

This was only just recently replaced with asp.net I understand. They got nearly 20 years out of each rewrite.

Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by cat199 on Monday July 17, 2017 @10:35AM (#14788805)
You're confusing hardware speed with the software/IPC measurement - the fastest VAX machine ever made ran at 100Mhz (or maybe 120), with 10Mbit ethernet and SCSI-2 I/O paths (1MB/s on a disk or so).

If you found a 486/100 and compared raw compute speed, the vax would likely have won for most cases, because it has 4x the registers.

I'm not actually sure about the clustering IPC performance, but you are essentially comparing hardware about 3-4 generations apart and blaming the software for the issues.. if you were comparing with 500MHz Alphas, etc, then you might have a point..

Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by staofbur on Tuesday July 18, 2017 @04:13PM (#14799682)
Not quite. We scaled it to 50x the user count at the same time.
Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by reitanqild on Monday July 17, 2017 @03:36AM (#14786381)
TCP connections are never dropped ETC

One thing I wonder now: how can this work?

Is there a physical load balancer in front or something?

Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by eej71 on Monday July 17, 2017 @11:51AM (#14789649)
That claim is simply not true.
Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by voidmain0001 on Monday July 17, 2017 @07:02AM (#14787325)
I don't have VMS experience, but rather AS/400 and iSeries experience. The difference vs generic purpose OS (Linux, Windows, OSX) is that the AS/400, and I'm going to assume VMS since they operated in similar markets, had these features baked in by the manufacturer. OS/400 on the AS/400 was a menu based system. If the menu option existed, the feature was available, and it was as simple as flipping the bit to YES to enable a feature. Enable clustering? Select Yes, add the information of the cluster and you were done. It just worked. Did it work well? I guess. There was no way to know if it could be done better since it was a manufacturer's enabled feature. Of course Linux, Windows, OSX can do the same thing as OS/400 on AS/400 but with a lot of configuration, and a lot of jumping through hoops [it's not called Hadoop for nothing ;-)].
Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by srean on Monday July 17, 2017 @04:59AM (#14786726)
Dont know about OCFS2 but Hadoop's file system HDFS and Ceph are hardly the stellar examples of rock solid and performant (I know its not an English word) distributed file systems. Google's mapreduce was so much more efficient in speed (4X and 4x last time I played with those tools) and resources primarily because of the bottlenecks imposed by HDFS design and implementation.
Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by garettmd on Monday July 17, 2017 @10:00AM (#14788538)
If performant isn't actually a word than a lot of people (myself included) have been doing it wrong. I can't think of a different variation on the word performance that would work
Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by srean on Monday July 17, 2017 @01:08PM (#14790443)
Some people are allergic to it, as for myself i cannot find a better substitute.
Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by pedasmith on Thursday July 20, 2017 @10:11PM (#14817598)
For example: you could make a cluster-wide lock that you code uses to coordinate access to cluster-wide shared resource.

Locks on most OSes have an "outer scope" of a process or the machine.

Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by lb1lf on Monday July 17, 2017 @05:47AM (#14786945)
Please bear with the lack of details, as my (very limited) VMS experience involved an offline system which never broke, but: it is amazingly tolerant of hardware failures, I recall sitting slack-jawed over the AlphaStation manual after learning you could hot-swap just about anything - including CPU boards!

Granted, that is as much (if not more!) a feature of the hardware architecture than the OS - but amazing still.

I've never heard of an NT box capable of that - maybe the Alpha port could do it? Anyone know?

Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by iheartmemcache on Monday July 17, 2017 @06:58AM (#14787306)
Fun fact: Windows 2008 R2 and Itanium 2 had lock-step fault-tolerance. (Which is on par with the other "biggies"-- VMS, IBMs OS360/MVS, and HP (nee Compaq Tandem)).

On a more relevant note, I know x86-64 Xeon's can mark bad RAM, disk drives, and network cards, and hot-swap them all out out (and has been able to do so for > 10 years) on most motherboards (it's supported at the OS level for Windows server), not sure if it ever had full CPU failure support though.

Re:OpenVMS State of the Port to x86_64 [pdf] by DaiPlusPlus on Monday July 17, 2017 @01:23AM (#14785874)
The "everything is a file" paradigm and a non-physical filesystem come to mind.