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Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by brightball on Saturday July 15, 2017 @01:48PM (#14777905)
I still don't understand the almost violent resistance to noncompetes. If they are "you can't work otherwise" then sure... it if it's literally that you can't go work for a direct competitor or take their clients to start your own I don't see the issue. That's more a matter of ethics than anything else and seems perfectly reasonable for a limited period of time (6 months to a year).
Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by Clubber on Saturday July 15, 2017 @01:55PM (#14777947)
That's the problem is they are so unfair.

What if you worked for some huge conglomerate like GE. What industry does GE not compete in? Or Microsoft? Walmart? Amazon? Also, their duration is typically 2-4 years. So you can't work in any major industry that GE competes in for 4 years and you get zero compensation for it. How is that anywhere close fair or reasonable?

Non-competes also include no hiring. That further limits my potential employment. If me and my buddy quit because we're sick, or bored of a place, we can't hire either other or recommend hiring each other for 2-4 years.

Guess what? If you have people who can't find employment and a good chunk of their opportunity is blocked because of non-competes, guess who pays for it?

Also, here's the crux of the hypocrisy. Companies are all about free market, but only when it benefits them. In a free market, I should be free to work anywhere for anyone. The only restriction would be not to divulge IP or trade secrets. I'm perfectly fine with that, but chances are, that's not what you are signing.

Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by thanksgiving on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:23PM (#14778112)
When I was younger, I used to think that non-compete meant that the company would continue to pay you the same salary as before for the duration of the non-compete. It just sounded like common sense.

I was young and naive. I am not that young anymore but I still think this needs to be a nationwide law. If you want me to not work (in an industry) for a particular length of time, you ought to pay me to not work about as much as what I would have made by working. Sure, put a ceiling at 50x minimum wage (so currently $725k a year https://www.google.com/search?q=7.25*2000*50 ) or something but this is just common sense that if you want to prevent me from working, you should pay me for the duration that I am not working.

Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by Clubber on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:36PM (#14778168)
I agree. I would say first make it non enforceable unless the employee is a certain status with certain parameters (like ownership) and then it's some multiple of salary after X years at the company. So you couldn't extend it to someone who's been there 6 months.
Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by KirinDave on Saturday July 15, 2017 @01:56PM (#14777951)
I really suspect you don't understand how broad tech-noncompetes are.

Given the court and arbitrator's lack of expertise, we see companies arguing that any software work at all is competition. Especially for emrging high-demand fields like machine learning.

Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by kafkaesq on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:14PM (#14778060)
I really suspect you don't understand how broad tech-noncompetes are.

Yeah, that's the issue basically. These things (and a lot of the golden handcuffs companies, especially inexperienced startups, like to slap on new employees - as if they didn't know any better) go way farther than anything remotely reasonable.

The end result being to discourage genuine trust and collaboration, rather than to foster it.

Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by Consultant32452 on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:31PM (#14778148)
Is this happening a lot in the tech world? I don't mean an anecdote here and there. I did some quick google searches and it seems like non-competes are usually enforced against people in sales/marketing of some sort, taking their client list with them. That seems like a completely reasonable enforcement. The instances that make headlines in the tech world are the ones where Uber may have intentionally stolen Google tech, or at least the employee intentionally brought Google tech with them to Uber. Again, completely reasonable.
Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by KirinDave on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:34PM (#14778160)
Yes. It happens to anyone who doesn't move to California. You can Google for stories on it.
Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by Consultant32452 on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:36PM (#14778169)
I didn't move to California and it's never happened to me or anyone I know. I did Google for stories on it and I couldn't find any stats. Do you have any?
Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by KirinDave on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:52PM (#14778269)
Many Microsoft Employees. Maybe try googling.

But there is also a larger question of why we allow them at all. They seem unconscionable in any industry. They're roughly akin to suggesting that if you train someone you own rights to their training.

Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by Consultant32452 on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:55PM (#14778285)
That's really not helpful. How many is "many?" And how many of those "many" would a reasonable person think is justified? The Uber case I mentioned previously is something I think a reasonable person would find justified. Is MSFT a bad actor or is this an industry-wide problem?
Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by KirinDave on Saturday July 15, 2017 @03:23PM (#14778429)
I spent 22 seconds more to Google this than then 45 seconds to type it in. I picked the first link in a string of many abuses of nocompetes.

You will get no more of my time: http://gawker.com/378444/did-you-sign-googles-noncompete-goo...

Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by Consultant32452 on Saturday July 15, 2017 @08:38PM (#14779870)
Again, how frequent/common is this in the industry? Articles with anecdotes are completely unhelpful. How many lawsuits have been filed in the past 5 years by former employers over non-competes? How many times have those employers won?
Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by KirinDave on Saturday July 15, 2017 @09:33PM (#14780038)
Again, "Consultant32452," you're mistaking our relationship. You're quite welcome for the free information, but don't mistake my largesse for interest in your conclusions or an obligation to help you.

You couldn't even say, "Please" or thank me for what I've offered you thus far. Is common decency not part of the cultural consensus where you're from?

Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by Consultant32452 on Monday July 17, 2017 @09:12AM (#14788150)
You made a baseless claim. I took the time to find data to back up your baseless claim, specifically stated I couldn't find any stats, and asked if you had any. You then responded, twice, with anecdotes. Why would I thank you if you weren't helpful? All you've done is spread baseless rumors which hurts the community.
Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by KirinDave on Monday July 17, 2017 @11:39AM (#14789532)
The reality of an easily verifiable situation is independent of your understanding or agreement with it. I'm unconcerned about convincing you because I've determined you're here in an anonymous capacity to defend no-competes.

I can't really figure out why you would. They only benefit very large organizations attempting to stifle competition and drive down skilled worker wages. Smaller companies can't really afford to consistently enforce them and lots of smaller companies use open moonlighting agreements and a lack of no-compete as a selling point.

But I also don't care. I am not obligated to convince you. Nor am I obligated to pay your little shufflepuck game that ultimately ends up with research behind a paywall you will refuse to follow.

This story: your tactic. It's not new. It's old. I've seen it done before, I've seen it executed better as well. There is nothing more telling than looking at an obvious example of abuse sourced off a reputable news site and saying, "But this is an anecdote and I wanted data."

I am sure you will post protestations about how unfair this is. And it is, somewhat. You bear the burden put upon all anonymous accounts before you. But to be honest, given your complete refusal to even google something and count the results makes me think you're actively defending this practice as opposed to genuinely curious.

Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by slaymaker1907 on Saturday July 15, 2017 @10:41PM (#14780204)
I think in cases like those, we as a community ought to work on nullifying such decisions by refusing to cooperate at all with them. An artist would refuse to surrender their art over such ridiculous nonsense so why shouldn't programmers?

In the artist metaphor, I also assume that it took a non-trivial amount of time, say a year.

Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by ScottBurson on Saturday July 15, 2017 @05:02PM (#14778917)
Compare the economic vibrancy of the Boston metro area (all the way out to Rte. 128) with the San Francisco Bay area (including Silicon Valley). Boston is a major educational hub, with some 250,000 students at a time at many universities and colleges including MIT and Harvard. And yet, the SF Bay area has left Boston in the dust when it comes to startup creation. There's nothing in Boston comparable to Apple, Google, or Facebook. And Boston was once a major hub of the computer industry, with Digital Equipment, Data General, and several smaller manufacturers -- that's all history now.

This is pretty strong empirical evidence that although enforceable noncompetes may be better for existing companies, they are a drag on the regional economy.

(Taking your current employer's clients is not exactly the same thing -- IANAL, but I would think that would be covered by the trade secret protections.)

Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by Clubber on Saturday July 15, 2017 @05:08PM (#14778955)
This sort of thing is absolutely, 100% these incumbent companies lobbying their governments to give them a short term economic benefit at the high cost to both employees of that company, employees that work in that local economy, taxpayers in that economy, and the local economy as a whole, and even that company themselves medium term. Who would want to work in Idaho after reading this?
Re:Idaho has made it easier for companies to enforce noncomp... by kafkaesq on Saturday July 15, 2017 @02:12PM (#14778045)
I still don't understand the almost violent resistance to noncompetes.

It's not "violent". It's the exact opposite of that, in fact.