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Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by dahart on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @11:49AM (#14745156)
I'm not sure what that means. Are you saying the use of Greek letters is a good thing, and that we need more of them, not less? Or do you mean that all symbols are equally easy to learn for beginners, whether they're English or Greek or Chinese or abstract? Or do you mean that we should do away with symbols that don't mean anything and use real language to describe math instead?

The symbols we use in math aren't to be confused with the ideas, they are shorthand. Ideas and symbols are independent, and we still have to explain what Greek letters do using English anyway. We use Greek letters for convenience, not for expressive power. Writing "∫ x ∂x" is only faster and more compact than writing "The integral of the equation x over x", it is not an improvement of the concept, right?

Use of symbols is the act of trying to compress everything into a smaller set, not the other way around.

For the modern audience, the use of Greek letters may hamper learning because the symbols are unfamiliar and foreign looking. It takes cognitive effort to learn the Greek letters in addition to the cognitive effort to learn the mathematical ideas. What if we could remove the cognitive effort on letters, and focus on the pure math ideas? What if the Greek letters are a speed bump to learning? That we use ∑ for sum and ∆ for change are arbitrary - canonical, but completely arbitrary. History could have decided that a circle was the integral symbol, or the capital letter I. Maybe math would be easier to learn if we switch to capital letter I.

Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by Jtsummers on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @12:07PM (#14745305)
> The symbols we use in math aren't to be confused with the ideas, they are shorthand. Ideas and symbols are independent, and we still have to explain what Greek letters do using English anyway. We use Greek letters for convenience, not for expressive power. Writing "∫ x ∂x" is only faster and more compact than writing "The integral of the equation x over x", it is not an improvement of the concept, right?

It is not, strictly, an improvement on the concept. It's the same concept expressed two ways.

But you cannot symbolically manipulate that prose text, where as you can stick that integral statement into an equation and manipulate it there along with the other expressions of the equation. The ability to perform those manipulations is an improvement.

Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by dahart on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @12:31PM (#14745537)
Very true, good point, it's much easier and more convenient to do algebra on the symbolic expression. There is a reason math has evolved the way it has. Not using any symbols would suck, no question.

But, nothing about writing math in text prevents manipulating the text, right? You can do it, it would just be laborious and exhausting for people who are familiar with the use of symbols.

Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by Jtsummers on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @12:54PM (#14745757)
It wouldn't just be laborious for those of us familiar with the symbolic notation, it'd be laborious for the new students as well.

Try a "solve for x" problem with the equation described in prose (still using short variable names and numbers though):

  x added to 4 all divided by 3 is equal to 16.
What's the next step in solving this? First, because we're abandoning the conventions of symbolic notation the groupings of equation parts (terms and expressions) becomes a bit hairier. I've tried to be clear, and I think in this instance it is, that "divided by 3" applies to "x added to 4". So we know that we should multiply both "sides" by 3. I put sides in quotes because, well, now there are no sides. An equally valid prose description is:

  one third of x plus four is the same as sixteen
If we lack conventions for expressing these statements we could probably come up with an absurd number of equally valid prose presentations of this one expression. This makes reasoning about the next steps much, much harder, as we first have to parse a near arbitrary expression and then discern the author's intent (and seek clarification for more complex ones).

  the result of dividing four and x by three is sixteen.
By the time you settle on a subset of english for prose math specification you'll be down to such a small or specialized portion of the language that you might as well add back in the symbols and at least lose the English dependency for your work so you can collaborate with people around the world.

There's a reason a good portion of elementary mathematics was spent on "word problems", where we reduced problems like this down to their essential equations (a process of abstraction, though not described to us as such). Usually you'd see the above as something like:

  Andrew has some number of apples. Billy gives him 4
  more. He splits the apples evenly between himself,
  Billy, and Charlie. Everyone has 16 apples, how many
  did Andrew have to start with?
All that other crap is noise. Just like in the prose version of the equation "the result of ..." has no value in trying to solve the problem.
Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by dahart on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:52PM (#14746302)
I completely agree it would be more laborius, including the beginner.

Maybe I didn't make my point clearly. I'm not arguing against the use of notation or symbols. I'm asking whether Greek specifically is slowing learning down or intimidating people from starting. I'm asking whether learning the symbols with the concepts is the most efficient way to learn math, not whether it's the most efficient way to do math.

Maybe the laborious way is better if more people are comfortable starting that way, and easing more slowly into symbolic syntax.

Maybe there's a more compelling story about math that will get more people interested in it than teaching what symbols do.

If Greek is intimidating enough that many people never start, it doesn't matter how actually laborious the symbols are or not, the battle is lost.

Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by eeZah7Ux on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @12:32PM (#14745552)
> unfamiliar and foreign looking

The whole point of education is to approach and embrace unfamiliar concepts.

By the way, arabic numbers are... arabic.

Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by dahart on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:41PM (#14746188)
Agreed. But learning multiple unfamiliar concepts at once takes longer than learning one unfamiliar concept at once.

It's a fact that some people are intimidated by Greek letters and highly symbolic math, I'm not sure why that's being pushed back on. It's an open question, not a statement on my part, whether using more familiar symbols would speed up learning. Are you absolutely certain it would not? Why? Have you tried?

Lots of people on HN believe music education would be improved by updating the notation to be more "modern", and complain that music is more difficult to learn than it could be.

Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by redial on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @08:29AM (#14751904)
I'm saying when you learn something new, you are learning new things, including the "language" that "thing" is expressed in in order for others to understand you.

What you seem to be saying is Japanese is too hard to learn, so let's just discard Kanji and use the english alphabet instead. You can do that, but at some point you are not teaching Japanese any more.

Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by bjl on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @12:09PM (#14745324)
In higher level math symbols are definitely used for their expressive power.
Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by dahart on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:45PM (#14746218)
I agree if we are talking about syntactically expressive power.

I was talking about conceptually expressive power. Symbols have no conceptually expressive power at all, we assign meaning to them by describing what they do using familiar language, and previously defined symbols. The transitive definition of any symbol is completely and only defined from first principles via familiar language.

Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by Jtsummers on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:19PM (#14745996)
∆ - delta - d as in difference

∑ - sigma - s as in sum

∫ - long s - s as in sum

It's not totally arbitrary.

Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by dahart on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @01:37PM (#14746151)
I could use alpha - a as in add.

I could use sigma - s as in subtract.

I could use iota - I as in integrate.

Of course it's arbitrary.

Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by Jtsummers on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:02PM (#14746418)
You claimed the symbols were arbitrary, they are (often) not. What you demonstrate here is not that the symbols are arbitrary, but that the concept (sound as abbreviation) maps to more than one potential meaning and the choice of which one is standard or convention is arbitrary.

That is correct, but at this point it is standard to see sigma as summation (or in some other contexts as set or space, but it's also clear in those contexts which meaning is appropriate, certainly an algebra student seeing sigma notation will not also be seeing sigma used for "set" or "space" in that same course).

Re:Math education: It’s not about numbers, it’s about learni... by dahart on Tuesday July 11, 2017 @02:26PM (#14746655)
You're conflating choice with canon/convention. The choice was made arbitrarily by someone. There was no convention at the time the arbitrary choice was made. The choice to use alliteration was as arbitrary as the choice of which Greek letters to use. There are other equally arbitrary possibilities.

Also don't confuse arbitrary with random. Having a reason doesn't mean a choice isn't arbitrary.

Bigger picture, maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but I feel like the logical conclusion of your argument is that nothing can change now, because canon. And yet basic math notations have changed throughout history.

It would take a lot of effort to change the summation symbol from sigma to something else. But if something else made learning math faster, the canon is exactly the part that needs to go, not an excuse to stop improving.