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Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by hugi on Saturday July 08, 2017 @05:55PM (#14727382)
I'm actually rather impressed with humanity's ability to standardize. It's perfectly natural (and in many cases desirable) for multiple parties to go through that "painful period" with different solutions that will compete to become "standard". It just takes a little time for everything to align and settle, that's perfectly natural.

As for the U.S. refusing to adopt the planet-wide metric system? You've got me there. That's just… Weird.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by zanny on Saturday July 08, 2017 @05:59PM (#14727402)
It should be obvious why the US stays on the imperial system. There is an opportunity cost to switch that is greater than the current ongoing cost of translation. Thus, someone has to bite the bullet and assume losses to push metric. Throughout the world, the organization that put the foot down and ate the bill has almost always been the government - but the US government operates on short term results. The politician that inconveniences the public today with a metric conversion doesn't have his seat tomorrow, and his replacement immediately halts proceedings.

Language isn't close to a solved problem. Hopefully the next hundred years can finally see the reconstruction of the Tower of Babel for a generation of the world soon to come. But there also needs to be a legitimate reason for us to want to unify language. If we operate independently of one another and let businesses control any interactions by proxy of money, we will stay separate.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by hugi on Saturday July 08, 2017 @06:48PM (#14727568)
As the U.S. loses political importance and mindshare, sites will stop using U.S. units. Conversion to metric will eventually happen.

As for language, I'm kind of split. On one hand language is a tool for communication that becomes more efficient the more standardized it is. On the other hand, language is closely related to art and culture. I'm Icelandic (and a poet at heart) and I love my language deeply. I can succintly say things in Icelandic that can't esaily be expressed in English. And that probably applies to every language.

So I'm torn. I don't want to lose my language. But I also want a more integrated world.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by sneak on Saturday July 08, 2017 @10:14PM (#14728057)
You won't lose your language; your grandkids will just not bother to learn it.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by hugi on Saturday July 08, 2017 @10:49PM (#14728124)
I have three kids and I seriously doubt their kids won't speak the language of their parents (assuming they'll live in Iceland).

The transition happens much slower, although I've been watching it accelerate over the past couple of decades. English is encroaching on the language. We speak Icelandic, but there are small grammatical changes happening, making the language more English - and at the same time, we're losing Icelandic vocabulary.

My prediction is that my grandkids (that's probably at least 13-15 years in the future (hopefully)) will speak Icelandic very similar to what I do, it'll just be a liiiittle different.

But these small changes will certainly accumulate and the pace of change will probably accelerate with more communication and integration. So who knows what will happen in the next 50-100 years.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by isostatic on Sunday July 09, 2017 @07:40AM (#14729296)
Welsh was pretty much wiped out as the far more practical use of English press over the centuries. About 50 years ago there was a political movement to re-introduce it, laws were past to ensure that government communicated in Welsh on request , roadsigns were bilingual, and Welsh was taught in schools (which is probably just as useful as French being taught in schools).

Language is the major barrier of freedom, I can theoretically get a job and move to Dublin, London, Berlin, Rome, Cadiz, Porto, Budapest, Taliin or Athens. In reality the language prevents it in most cases.

In 100 years time we could either live in a fuedal society where you can live/work in a small area owned by a local baron who reports to an international mega corporation, with international style communications in a language nobody knows - just like 14th century England and Latin, or we could have a free borderless world where there is fictionless movement and communication. I hope technology will enable the latter before the former entrenchs again.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by esolyt on Saturday July 08, 2017 @06:26PM (#14727493)
The problem is public opinion. Americans either don't care or think imperial is superior.

It doesn't have to be a federal law. Change can start gradually with private companies. Pokemon Go, for instance, shows only kilometers and doesn't offer imperial units as an option. All water bottles in the US have both mililiters and fluid ounces on their label.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by cr0sh on Saturday July 08, 2017 @08:41PM (#14727843)
From what I understand, most construction and other raw materials are all measured in metric units, then converted to imperial at final sale if needed.

For instance, a 4 x 8 foot sheet of plywood down at Home Depot isn't really 4 x 8 feet; it actually has an imperial measurement of 47.938 x 95.938 inches, which is approximately 1217 x 2437 mm - the standard metric size is 1220 x 2440 mm:

http://cwc.ca/wood-products/panel-products/plywood/sizes/

Thicknesses (as noted in the table too) have similar "whole" metric numbers. You see this also on some (not all) general materials sold to the American consumer public - the actual material is metric sized, but marketed with imperial measurements.

I think this is done both for cultural reasons, as well as just "momentum" and that the public is used to it. But the reality is (almost) everything is now metric, the public just isn't fully aware of it yet.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by Terretta on Saturday July 08, 2017 @11:44PM (#14728245)
This doesn’t pass commen sense for me. Plywood measured in metric, converted to imperial if needed? I can imagine someone coming up with 4 feet by 8 feet as a standard size for building material. I don’t see them coming up with 1220mm x 2440mm and thinking “nailed it, perfect size for calculating how many of these to make a wall!”

Also, since the gap between plywood takes space, plywood (and drywall) is a bit less than stated size to give you breathing room to put 4x8s repeating every 4 and 8 feet.

That said I don’t know why a nominal 2×4 is actually 1½ × 3½. Used to be finishing work shaved it down, now they just make ‘em that way to be ornery.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by abakker on Sunday July 09, 2017 @01:12AM (#14728449)
The sizing is also dependent on intent. Floor underlayment is not the exact same size as furniture grade plywood. And MDF is actually 49"x97" to give you some extra room if you are laminating a veneer on it. It is true that various plywoods come in metric thickness though. Especially those made in China.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by johncolanduoni on Saturday July 08, 2017 @11:51PM (#14728262)
> All water bottles in the US have both mililiters and fluid ounces on their label.

That's actually required by federal law. A lot of commercial regulations in the US require metric measurements in addition to imperial.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by jaggederest on Sunday July 09, 2017 @12:04AM (#14728308)
Legacy of the 1970s-1980s attempt to move the US onto the metric standard.

Don't tell people who are annoyed by metric, but all the 'imperial' units we use now are 100% based on metric units. Our metrology has been metric since that time, all the day-to-day usage is derived units.

Which is why an inch is exactly 2.54cm instead of some rounded fraction.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by myroon5 on Saturday July 08, 2017 @09:26PM (#14727959)
Esperanto is probably the most successful attempt at language standardization so far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by pmarreck on Sunday July 09, 2017 @01:35AM (#14728504)
And how well is that doing, over the course of its entire existence?

As well as the Dvorak keyboard layout, I imagine

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by zanny on Sunday July 09, 2017 @12:31PM (#14730508)
Dvorak is something anyone can use on their own any time. I imagine it is much more successful than Esperanto, because the only point of language is communication. It is the Facebook problem - you need a large network of participants to make a language work, or the language fails its purpose.

Also, Esperanto is ugly as fuck. It has I believe 4 accented letters, and I have no idea why anyone would think when divising a new language that accents or umlauts are good ideas (unless all the letters supported them and had consistent meaning). Otherwise, just use new characters.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by sweettea on Saturday July 08, 2017 @07:18PM (#14727661)
Imperial units are better, and I expect the world will convert to them in the next century. They're sane and easily divisible into eighths and more with a single significant digit of the next smaller unit, while going from 1 kilo to 125 grams is a awkward increase in digits. They're human scale: a pound is generally about a big handful, while a gram is hardly an easily estimated quantity for humans and a kilogram is awkwardly big to hold in one's hand. A cup and a pint are useful amounts of water to drink, while a liter is a bit more than a useful quantity to measure such things by. An inch is a knuckle on my finger, and a foot is the length of my forearm, while a meter is difficult to measure without a reference and a centimeter is a useful unit but I don't have an inbuilt measuring unit that long. I could go on, but I think this is a sufficient set of examples: metric is difficult to use for casual estimation (which is, after all, what one does most of the time, imperial is designed to be on a human scale and is better for everyday use and estimation.

Edit: Not sarcasm. I work with imperial daily farming, and worked with metric doing chemistry in college.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by rdtsc on Sunday July 09, 2017 @01:21AM (#14728463)
> expect the world will convert to them in the next century.

> Edit: Not sarcasm.

Heh. I think you'd be disappointed. I haven't heard of of any modern country seriously considering moving from metric to imperial units.

> They're sane and easily divisible into eighths and more with a single significant digit of the next smaller

Divisible maybe. But definitely not sane.

Let's take a look at lengths and weights for example:

How many inches in a foot? 12. Ok. Then it must be 12 feet in a yard. Nope. It's 3. How many yards in a mile? Guessing 1000 or 1200. Nope. Apparently 1760.

Let's try weights. Going up from ounces. Since we already did imperial lengths and saw there are 12 inches in a foot, guessing there should be 12 ounces in a pound. Wrong again. It's 16. Ok, so then 1 US ton should be 1600 pounds right? Nope, wrong again. Apparently it is 2000!

I grew up with metric then came to US and lived here for more than a decade. Apart from knowing how many inches in a foot I had to look up all the other ones because they are non-intuitive and don't follow any pattern to me. I can estimate how much is a yard, an ounce, a pound, an inch, and a foot. But again I could intuitively estimate things even better when it came to meters, kilometers and kilograms.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by pmarreck on Sunday July 09, 2017 @01:31AM (#14728492)
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by dtech on Sunday July 09, 2017 @06:55AM (#14729191)
This is so America-centric it baffles me, you sound delusional, especially that you think countries will convert to imperial. There is no country in the world thinking about that, and a lot of countries have converted from imperial to metric.

Your biggest complaints are that (1) metric units are not quantities you use in everyday life and (2) that you don't know how large a metric quantity is.

Both are just because you are unfamiliar with the system, people working with this system do not have this problem at all. Regarding (1), people don't care that a litre is too large too drink, they just know that a glass is 0.2-0.25L, so you can get 4-5 glasses out of a litre bottle. The benefit base 10 units is that they're easy to convert and use, people don't care if something is in cL/dL/L because it's just a comma placement away.

Regarding (2), people have a very good feeling about how big their everyday units are. E.g. a metre is about a step (large/small step depending on your size), that's fine for rough measurements, and about as (in)accurate as your "a foot is my forearm".

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by ajmurmann on Saturday July 08, 2017 @09:27PM (#14727963)
The point about fractions is actually somewhat interesting. The fractions thing seems to be a uniquely American thing to me. When I grew up in Germany people rarely used fractions other than half and third. You'd never here 1/8 or 1/16. I still remember being surprised when I first encountered a quarter. I still don't think in fractions but in multiples of ten. Now you make the point that even the imperial grab bag of unrelated units lends itself somehow better to that. I wonder where that cultural difference comes from.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by mulmen on Sunday July 09, 2017 @03:43AM (#14728788)
It's really useful in cases where you need an answer a question like "I want to drill a hole in the middle of this board which is 12.25 (12 and 1/4) inches long." It's easier to for me to split that in half in my head than divide the fraction and find the corresponding mark on my tool.

Half of 12 is 6, half of 1/4 is 1/8, I drill the hole at 6 and 1/8".

It's easy to get a fractional measurement of whatever is in front of you and immediately work with that measurement in your head then find the corresponding mark on your measuring tool. There is no reason the same system would not work with metric, it just seems to be more common with imperial units.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by kungtotte on Sunday July 09, 2017 @04:13AM (#14728860)
In metric-land, standard measurements for things are used to make things like that easily divisible.

E.g. IKEA cabinets are 60 cm wide (90, or 120 for larger cabinets), common countertop depth is 60 cm, and so on.

That way we get to use sane and consistent units and we can easily see/measure the middle of a 60cm piece of wood or whatever.

It also tickles me how eyeballing these things is apparently something desirable. Whenever I work around my house I measure everything twice to be sure...

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by mulmen on Sunday July 09, 2017 @04:24AM (#14728870)
This has nothing to do with eyeballing, I hope I did not give that impression. In the imperial measurement world there are also standard sizes of things but that's not the point. Using a fractional scale (not necessarily imperial!) does have benefits in some situations, such as measuring and working with some arbitrary object placed in front of you. Measuring twice is not unique to the metric system and is very common in the imperial unit world as well.

Not everything in the world is (or should be) provided by Ikea :)

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by 8xde0wcNwpslOw on Saturday July 08, 2017 @07:25PM (#14727688)
I assume you are joking.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by carussell on Sunday July 09, 2017 @12:35AM (#14728385)
> a foot is the length of my forearm

Or the length of one's foot, even.

You're right about meters not being as good a "human scale" measurement as feet. The idea of average height being 1.8 m is pretty awkward on its face. Turns out, though, the metric world has settled on starting with centimeters, though. But it's not clear that this is better, because now you end up throwing around high magnitude numbers like "183 cm" rather than "6 ft".

Given that we're clearly comfortable going with a diminutive unit (viz. cm vs m), I've always thought it would be better for the world to settle on the decimeter as the reference unit instead. It's larger than a centimeter but smaller than a meter, which is what we're after, and it's about the width of one's hand, which is arguably a more natural choice for something "human scale" than the foot. The snag is that "foot" still rolls of the tongue a lot more easily that "decimeter". So we go ahead and say 1 dm = "1 hand". It's a great unit, because if we want, we can scale up or down to meters and centimeters with (base 10-derived) constant factors, which is so easy that anybody can do it in their head.

The only snag left is that "hand" is already in use as a unit. This turns out to be less problematic than it sounds, because the legacy hand is an obscure unit really only used in horse breeding. And we're in luck, because as its name suggests, the imperial "hand" is named after the span of one's hand (with fingers extended), so they're roughly the same—it's not as if you end up with one name for two wildly differing sizes. This is the same kind of "conversational equivalence" we get with a ton and a metric tonne. That is, in conversation you're basically never reduced to needing the speaker to clarify which it is that he or she means, because you just don't need that kind of precision—a ton and a tone are both two very large masses that are in the same ballpark as one another.

Perhaps most importantly, the transition from feet to hands is fairly straightforward in conversational use, because end up saying that "1 ft" equals "about 3 hands".

People make a big deal about pi versus tau, but getting widespread adoption of the "hand" as a unit seems to me to be a much more worthwhile cause, because it would have a much bigger practical impact on everyday life than tau ever would.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by lb1lf on Sunday July 09, 2017 @02:29AM (#14728640)
>> a foot is the length of my forearm

>Or the length of one's foot, even.

-If you're using size 14 (US; male), 15,5 (US; female), 48 (Europe), 12,5 (Mexico)...

The good thing about standards is that there's so many to choose from.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by jerrysievert on Sunday July 09, 2017 @04:28AM (#14728880)
or, if you're in the US, size 14, 15.5, 48, or 12.5.

thus underscoring your point: we can't even agree on how to represent numbers, let alone measurements!

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by carussell on Sunday July 09, 2017 @09:48AM (#14729718)
The variation argument equally applies to forearm length.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by hugi on Saturday July 08, 2017 @07:23PM (#14727680)
Before I upvote—this is sarcasm, right?
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by wbl on Saturday July 08, 2017 @08:41PM (#14727846)
"A half liter is too small and a liter too much"- Why the UK still uses the pint in bars.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by NickNameNick on Saturday July 08, 2017 @08:52PM (#14727877)
Do they really use pints? Most new 'pint' glasses I see are marked 56 Centi-litres.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by goodcanadian on Saturday July 08, 2017 @09:37PM (#14727977)
One imperial pint is 56.8 cl, so that is about a pint. It looks like they are shortchanging you 8ml.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by hugi on Saturday July 08, 2017 @10:50PM (#14728128)
EU Bastards!
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by isostatic on Sunday July 09, 2017 @05:33AM (#14729008)
The EU states pint glasses must be 568ml (or larger with a line to the level) and measured in a sane and consistent way. Bit like BS standards and crown marking, but makes trade easier - if I make pint glasses for use in the UK, in Greece, and in Spain, I don't need to get 3 standards bodies to approve them.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by pmarreck on Sunday July 09, 2017 @01:32AM (#14728497)
What's more practical/usable, "bartender I'll have a pint!" or "bartender I'll have fifty-six centiliters!"
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by isostatic on Sunday July 09, 2017 @05:26AM (#14728994)
What's more practical, "I'll have 1 3/4 pints" or "I'll have a litre"

Don't get me started in "tiny pints" used in the u.s.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by johncolanduoni on Saturday July 08, 2017 @11:54PM (#14728269)
The organizations that spend a lot of time thinking about units are heavily weighted towards the sciences, where those kind of properties are less useful and various properties of metric are very useful.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by kwhitefoot on Sunday July 09, 2017 @02:49AM (#14728675)
The US does not use the imperial system, it uses US Customary.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by fl0wenol on Saturday July 08, 2017 @07:38PM (#14727712)
Is this a troll?

The U.S. is on metric; NIST defines and curates standards on the ISU and is a critical, founding participant in the GCWM. Manufacturing and engineering specifications (especially for the military) are usually ISU. It's just that commercially imperial units are still popular. Most people aren't engineers or scientists and so they don't think about this a lot, but marketing loves inertia.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by chiph on Saturday July 08, 2017 @09:49PM (#14728000)
The US is one of the original signers of the Metric Treaty, so technically we are metric. And it turns out that our common units are defined in terms of the metric system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmSJXC6_qQ8

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by refurb on Saturday July 08, 2017 @08:19PM (#14727801)
Thank you!!

I worked as a scientist in the US. Everything is metric. Cars are assembled with metric bolts.

The only thing left that's imperial is generally the consumer facing untold of pounds and gallons.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by Noumenon72 on Saturday July 08, 2017 @09:20PM (#14727951)
I manufactured plastic sheeting and all product was measured in inches, leading to a huge amount of conversion (24-3/8 sheet with +3/64 tolerance) and to me learning what a mil is (1/1000 of an inch). 10 mil plastic runs and stacks totally differently from 15 mil, and 40 and 60 mil take different amounts of time to cool and shrink, so there truly would have been switching costs going to meters (plus all the people who ordered 48x96 sheets, and rolls on 6-inch diameter cores, and so forth).
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by fl0wenol on Sunday July 09, 2017 @11:29PM (#14733196)
Hit the nail on the head.

There's a lot of domain-specific units in use which aren't even imperial originally (fluid barrel, troy ounce/carat, ton of cooling, horsepower, AWG) that will stick around for a long time since they're used so frequently in finance, planning and B2B transactions, along with other imperial units that'll remain because they've taken on domain-specific uses (acre of land, fabric yard, bushel, mils) even when the engineers and logistics folks touching that same stuff are using SI equivalents.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by cr0sh on Saturday July 08, 2017 @08:46PM (#14727861)
There was a time in the mid-1990s when certain models of vehicles had both metric and imperial fasteners on them; made wrenching on them a major pain. But today, though, everything is metric.

You're right that consumer marketing is still toward imperial. I think it's just going to be a slow process of gradual weaning away as older people pass on. I'm personally of a "in-the-middle" generation (X) - I tend to be more comfortable with imperial units, but if metric is required, or I think it might be a better measurement to use (depending on the purpose), then I'll use it instead.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by macintux on Sunday July 09, 2017 @12:15AM (#14728335)
Everything is metric?!

Admittedly these are oldish examples, but https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter springs to mind, and my 2005 Jeep is a crazy hodgepodge of metric and imperial bolts.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by axaxs on Sunday July 09, 2017 @01:00AM (#14728430)
um, not true. Most cars are an odd assortment of metric and imperial. All construction is imperial, and most consumer foods are imperial as well.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by snarfy on Sunday July 09, 2017 @08:12AM (#14729381)
The US government adopted it in 1975, and Reagan abolished it 1982.

It's frustrating not being able to repair the tools I buy from home depot using tools bought from home depot. I couldn't even go metric if I wanted to. They don't sell raw materials in metric. You get 4x8' sheets of plywood and something called a 2x4 which seems to have nothing to do with either measuring system. It's not even Cartesian.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by dekhn on Sunday July 09, 2017 @10:42AM (#14729932)
2x4s are measured using nominal sizes- "nominally" they are 2" by 4" but in reality a bit less. There is a lawsuit over this right now.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by pmarreck on Sunday July 09, 2017 @01:30AM (#14728490)
12 inches in a foot, 12 hours in a day... it is arguable that the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duodecimal system is superior to the "powers of 10" the metric system uses: http://io9.gizmodo.com/5977095/why-we-should-switch-to-a-bas...
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by tzs on Sunday July 09, 2017 @01:23AM (#14728473)
The metric system was based on one great (mostly) idea, and one stupid idea.

The great idea was having larger and smaller units for a given thing related to the base unit by powers of 10. That's a lot easier to work with than 12 inches to a foot, 3 feet to a yard, 1760 yards to a mile.

The stupid idea was basing the meter on the distance between the North Pole and the Equator.

What they should have done is based it on existing systems of units. The meter should have been equal to 3 feet. The definition of the foot at the time, in both England and on the continent I believe, was a bit fuzzy, but they all had such a unit and it was reasonably consistent everywhere. Then they could have worked at making the definition of the foot/meter more precise and reproducible, keeping it within the range of existing practice.

That would have given us the benefits of a metric system, but with the conversion between metric and prior units easier. Converting feet to meters would have then been a simple division by 3. An inch would be exactly 25 mm. (25 is easy to multiple by in your head: just divide by 4 and shift the decimal point two to the right. Similarly it is easy to divide by in you head if you do it as a multiply by 4 and then shift the decimal two to the left).

Similarly for all other metric base units except for temperature.

For temperature, as far as I can tell, there was NO good reason to switch to Celsius. Unlike with distance, we don't make bigger or smaller units out of multiples of the base unit. We just state the numeric value, in decimal, possibly with modifiers like kilo or micro, and the base unit. In other words, with temperature we were kind of already doing metric, in the sense of using powers of 10 and writing things in decimal.

So the only thing switching from the older, widely in use Fahrenheit scale to Celsius actually made better was changing the anchor points for the scale. Fahrenheit based his scale on a 0 point of the coldest temperature he could make in his lab, and his 100 point at what he thought was human body temperature.

Celsius based his on water freezing at 100 and boiling at 0, but the whole universe thought having lower numbers mean hotter was stupid, so it was quickly flipped to freezing at 0 and boiling at 100.

Now those anchor points are better than the ones Fahrenheit picked, because they are easier to reproduce and more consistent. (They still suck...but they suck a lot less). Fahrenheit's degree size was better, though, especially for the range of temperatures that most people live in. Celsius' degree is too coarse.

The right approach would have been to make Fahrenheit the scale for metric temperature, but anchor at it better points. Instead of 0 as coldest Fahrenheit could make in his lab and 100 human body temperature, use the same anchors Celsius did: freezing and boiling of water. Define freezing as 32 Fahrenheit and boiling as 212 Fahrenheit.

This would have made as much sense as adopting Celsius, and no one would need a new thermometer.

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by isostatic on Sunday July 09, 2017 @05:39AM (#14729023)
Centigrade makes far more sense. -10 means stay inside. 0 means ice on the road, 10 means jumper still needed, 20 is comfortable, 30 means barbecue required, 40 means you're abroad, stay inside.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by tptacek on Sunday July 09, 2017 @10:58AM (#14730008)
It's also much more useful in cooking.
Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by benoits on Sunday July 09, 2017 @05:19AM (#14728977)
The metric system was first adopted during the French revolution. Why would they base the meter on the british foot? The pied du roi was 324.84mm compared to the UK 296 mm.

Same comment for temperatures. Both scale emerge around the time (mid 1700s). It's not like people switched from Fahrenheit to Celcius...

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by FabHK on Wednesday July 12, 2017 @06:37PM (#14757267)
> The stupid idea was basing the meter on the distance between the North Pole and the Equator.

1. I like the sentiment though (base the unit on something universal in nature).

2. It explains, btw, why 10000 km are about 5400 nautical miles (90 degrees between equator and pole, 60 minutes per degree)

Re:Before 1948, LA's Power Grid Ran at 50hz by raattgift on Sunday July 09, 2017 @04:02PM (#14731392)
> The stupid idea was basing the meter on the distance between the North Pole and the Equator

Why is that stupid?

The point of SI (and its predecessors like MKS and CGS dating from the early 19th century) is readily achievable, coherent and replicable standards for not just length, but also mass, time, temperature, electric current, amount (of a uniform subsatance), luminous intensity and several derived units like volume (of an arbitrarily shaped container), pressure, electric charge, force, and so forth.

Some of the fundamental units were harder to insert into a coherent system in an easily replicable and achievable way.

You've chosen to look at two such units -- length and temperature.

The metre has an interesting history whose beginnings suffered from difficulties in achieving independent reproducibility of the standard metre. Starting in the 17th century, various approaches were explored, with two leading candidates surviving into the 19th century, both relating to the geometry of the Earth in principle measurable everywhere with suitable equipment. One candidate required a detailed survey of a meridian and an almanac of angular measurements one could make against objects in the sky or objects receding over the horizon or alternatively with a map angular measurements of objects of known height disappearing over the horizon. Another candidate required an excellent portable frequency standard and an almanac relating that to time-of-day in a location-dependent fashion.

The first is the version that survived until the definition of the metre was tied to the properties of atoms and the universality of the speed of light, mostly because it was more reproducible. This was the "meridional" version; one could readily produce a high precision metre prototype with good equipment and a stable platform on a large calm body of water extending to the horizon along a meridian (this means one could do so essentially on the shore of a large lake). The definition is 1/10000 of 1/4 of a great circle through both poles of a geoid that averaged out slight differences in oblateness of the Earth's surface. Apart from error terms relating to the non-uniformities in the Earth's true surface, realizations using trigonometry against objects in the sky suffered uncertainties because of the several sources of variation in the rotational speed of the planet. With the advent of GPS and decent approaches to defining a working geoid, a "meridional" approach is still viable, although I would be surprised if anyone seriously proposed dong so as a replacement for the present definition based on the speed of light.[1]

The other leading candidate was the "pendulum" method. When one constructs any pendulum whose half-period is one second anywhere on the surface of the planet, the arm of the pendulum will have a length very close to one metre. One critical problem is that local mass concentrations, altitude, and latitude all influence the length, and already in the 18th century it was clear that the length of the pendulum could vary by several millimetres within a radius of even a few hundred kilometres in some places, and there was no a priori way to determine all of the local contributions in order to achieve the same accuracy possible with the meridional method. Worse, precisely calibrating a seconds pendulum was a difficult technical challenge even in laboratories, even though the underlying mathematical formula was fairly simple. The problem is that in ideal situations the dominant driving term is "g_0", the standard acceleration of terrestrial free fall (as it is now known). Unfortunately the actual acceleration of objects near the surface in free fall in vacuum varies significantly across the whole of the planet, and can even vary over relatively short timescales at one location, and there is no a priori way to determine the expectation value with great reliability. Indeed we've had relatively poor data with which to build a global almanac until the 21st century with satellite observatories like GRACE and GOCE[2], and even now relying on a seconds pendulum for defining a metre is an unattractive proposition.

The metric unit of temperature is the kelvin, not the degree Celsius. The Celsius scale is based on kelvins, but with a 0 point (that of the triple point of a particular standard of purified water at a particular pressure) that is fairly straightforwardly achieved with decent precision even in a typical school science classroom setting. The kelvin is defined in terms of of an exact fraction that triple point, and it "only" suffers some difficulties in the exact definition and realization of 0 K.

The kelvin is due to be redefined in the next few years taking a fixed value for the Boltzmann constant k_B which can be expressed in terms of J K^-1 where J is Joules and K is kelvins, while the modern Joule is already defined in terms of the Planck constant h, the speed of light in vacuum, and the second. This redefinition is aimed principally at coherency as mentioned at the top, as we replace features common near the surface of the Earth everywhere people live with physical constants expected to be the same everywhere in the observable universe. A strong parallel goal is reproducibility and realizability of the units; the kelvin was already easily reproduced with high precision, and few metrologists are wholly comfortable with a definition that could be much harder to "show" in a lab or factory.

> "more consistent"

The Kelvin scale has always been well-integrated with the other units of SI and its predecessors, particularly since the beginning of the late 19th century programme of defining units in terms of universal physical constants.

The equivalent in U.S. Customary Units is the Rankine scale, which has the same 0 point as the Kelvin scale, but using Fahrenheit-sized degrees (which in the U.S. are anyway defined by NIST as 5/9 K, and NIST prefers "rankine" over "degree Rankine"). There is no (formal) "Imperial" rankine; AFAICT the whole of the former British Empire uses kelvins either in the Kelvin scale or (when discussing weather or cooking, for instance) the Celsius scale, although proximity to the USA and aborted-by-1980s-politics conversion to metric leads to Canada using a mix of units -- e.g. Celsius in weather reporting and Fahrenheit in household cooking.

However, given the 5/9 constant conversion factor, using rankines vs kelvins is a matter of choice. The placement of a zero point in a scale with such degrees is almost essentially arbitrary (although there are obvious attractions for some realizable ground state as the zero point. While "absolute zero" might be reached asymptotically with close approximations of an ideal gas it is not an obviously perfect choice on theoretical grounds), and is a matter of suitability. Thus there is no clear "better" between the two everyday temperature scales; each has advantages and drawbacks. Equally importantly, neither offers scope for improvement of definition of degree or zero than the other.

Essentially all scientific applications use the Kelvin scale; most of the world is comfortable using Celsius in non-scientific applications. There is almost no use of the Rankine scale (even in the USA), and most people in the USA are comfortable using Fahrenheit in non-scientific applications. Some cultures use a mix of Celsius and Fahrenheit in everyday situations. And of course, many cultures have never used the Fahrenheit scale. None of these cultures or the economies they participate in seem to be on the verge of collapse because they have made a "wrong" choice of temperature scale, however it is notable at how quickly the everyday use of Fahrenheit in most of the former British Empire collapsed.

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[1] advances in (long-baseline) interferometry in the late 19th century could have been directed at improving the definition of the "meridional" metre, but it would have been odd not to take advantage of short-baseline interferometry that is at the heart of the "wavelength" definition proposed by Michelson (of the famous Michelson and Morley experiment). Unfortunately a consistently reproducible monochromatic emitter was unachieved until the middle of the 20th century, and even with the advent of solid-state lasers, the "wavelength" interferometry approach has more sources of uncertainty than the present light-second definition.

[2] http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/04/110406-new-m...