Someone else here mentioned that Bill Gates met Melinda (his wife) while she was working at Microsoft. Wouldn't this mean their relationship shouldn't have happened/is wrong?

There are many public figures who have met, dated, and married their colleagues. One that comes to mind is Jimmy Kimmel and his wife (head writer for his show). I think as long as it doesn't affect hiring/promoting/professional decisions it's a different situation. This is also assuming, of course, that there is no form of harassment going on.

Well it definitely has an affect, the only difference is everybody is either ok with it or indifferent to it. If all of a sudden Jimmy's wife starts being an asshole and gets fired then what? You don't think it would be handled differently if the head writer wasn't his wife? Just like this Facebook message thing. If she had been receptive to it, everybody is cool. But since she wasn't all of a sudden we've got the pitchforks out. I'm not saying it isn't wrong per se, but it's a far cry from some sort of clear-cut breech of ethics when whether it's ok or not depends on somebody's reception to it, and we sit here and happily condone marriages in the workplace and pretend they don't have an effect.

I mean there's also a couple other things that differentiates McClure's situation. He's also married. He seems to have accelerated the harassment immediately. Obviously I don't know the details, but it doesn't seem like he was just asking her out on a date. And if he did then clearly she wasn't receptive and he should have stopped. I think it's pretty easy to see that there's a clear violation on McClure's side.

Sure I don't disagree. At the same time, I can see (and I'm sure it's happened) that if he had sent just one message, and had not been married, we may see a similar reaction. My larger point isn't that he didn't do anything wrong, but that these situations are common, we usually only hear about it when something bad happens, and the line between what is acceptable or not is highly variable.

mcclure was married and she knew it when he did this.

Its not very hard to make your intentions clear outright. Like other siblings have pointed out, it was the way that he propositioned her that was creepy and unprofessional. He appears to be leveraging the financial power he has to get the lady to go out with him, whether he realized that or not. (Strictly personally, my opinion is that he was fully aware of what he did. He seems like a very smart and determined person and its hard to see him not realizing this).

A better way would have been to make it explicit. i.e. "Hey X, now that we are done with business, I was wondering if you would like to meet over coffee sometime later. This will certainly not affect our professional relationship either way, but I think you're an interesting person and would like to know you better."

Some relationships though are just really dicey, like the one above. Its like having a relationship with your direct manager, since the manager is evaluating you professionally, and that's why its generally considered a bad idea.

As the OP pointed out, one of the big differences is that Bill Gates never said "go out with me or I'll fire you", whereas McClure clearly indicated he was choosing between hiring and hitting on.

Who knows exactly what it was like for Bill ans Melinda. It isn't difficult to pick up on social cues of someone illustrating a mutual interest in you before you outwardly hit on them. It's also not difficult to respectfully ask them if they would like to get a drink, in a personal context. There's no evidence McClure did either.

It is most certainly not fine.

Yeah, it's not fine.

I meant it in a different way (and was being somewhat sarcastic): that in a lot of cases, office flirting (even among equal peers) can seem OK if the woman likes the guy, and creepy if they don't (e.g. he is awkward, nerdy, out of shape, etc). In essence, a comment on how "jocks" get away with more of that kind of stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxuUkYiaUc8

> If he wanted a relationship, there are infinitely better and more appropriate ways to go about it, especially if he thought she might actually be interested.

McClure aside, in general situation when during recruitment precess you meet someone you would like to date is there really a way to go about it that doesn't end badly? Message during recruitment is plain creepy. Asking them out after they are hired is bad for obvious reasons like you being the superior and him/her having the impression that this is the real reason they've been hired. There was at least one story on HN that I remember when someone wasn't hired and soon after was asked for a date and it also ended badly, even if that person waited some time to be "safe" that still could be counted as stalking and using information summited during the interview for personal reasons is bad.

But you can't even ask about their phone number anyway! It doesn't matter if your intentions are honest and you two could be a good couple if you met at different occasion. Once the recruitment process starts he/she is pretty much removed form your dating pool. Even if you ask nicely without any inappropriate signals - any move you make can be seen by him/her as you taking advantage of the situation. Even innocent question about phone number can have really scary implications from his/her point of view.

Sure it can end in nice date or maybe an awkward silence and you explaining yourself and apologizing or it can give them a true nightmare... Are you going to risk it?

> in general situation when during recruitment precess you meet someone you would like to date is there really a way to go about it that doesn't end badly?

(a) No, not one where you have any control whether it goes bad or not

(b) Your day job is not a dating service

(c) If you can't figure out a and b on your own, you're not mature enough for a position of power

Was it not clear that this is what I was saying? That asking out that would be OK in other situations is not OK in the context of job interview?

I feel you said (a), and (b) and (c) were my additions. If you implied them and I missed it, then please consider my comment as TLDR-as-a-Service =)

Sorry, on it's own the sentence you cited can be read both ways and I was afraid you stopped reading there. My bad.

HE WAS MARRIED

This isn't actually that complicated. There are seven billion people in the world, you choose one of the ones that you aren't professionally compromised with to date. Period.

Life is full of situations where you have to choose between two competing positive values. It's part of being an adult.

Yes, you are right about there being a choice. This is the core of the problem here. Many I feel look at it and wonder why pass a good opportunity to meet someone, we could both have a chance at something great (unending source of unwanted advances)... The advice about not trying it in professional settings is seen as taking away their freedom to date people, as being rejected without even ability to ask and by it being fundamentally unjust. What they fail to consider is how it look from the other side and how the very same innocent question from their point of view can be seen as some sort of "deal" and part of nightmarish recruitment process.

Oh give me a break. You are so uptight.