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Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by sillysaurus3 on Thursday June 29, 2017 @09:19AM (#14663036)
I don't want the NSA to become a defensive organization. I like that Iran's nuclear program is being delayed. That's not a defensive action.

You don't seem to be proposing that the NSA become defensive, either. If Russia attacks us and we don't respond, that's not even defensive. That's dismantling.

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by wu-ikkyu on Thursday June 29, 2017 @09:36AM (#14663153)
A defensive response would be to inform major vendors of our own infrastructure (i.e. Microsoft, Cisco) of the gaping holes in their systems, instead of leaving them open for the world to attack.
Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by killjoywashere on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:11AM (#14663436)
I can name at least one netsec guy who attributes his entire team's existence to the NSA calling his employer and doing exactly that.
Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by sillysaurus3 on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:21AM (#14663503)
Right. It's a false dichotomy that the NSA doesn't do that and needs to disarm itself. There's a happy middle ground where people don't attack us because they're worried about our retaliation and we also improve our own defenses.
Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by wu-ikkyu on Thursday June 29, 2017 @02:16PM (#14665600)
Sounds like that netsec guy's team serves military customers then?
Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by killjoywashere on Sunday July 02, 2017 @12:41AM (#14680928)
No, they do design work for consumer products.

But good job reading my prior comments :)

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by wu-ikkyu on Wednesday July 05, 2017 @07:07PM (#14706877)
What type of consumer products? And I'm not sure what comments you're referring to.
Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by pjc50 on Thursday June 29, 2017 @11:57AM (#14664274)
"Cyberweapons" should be treated like bioweapons: there should be a framework of international law to decommission them, because they are simply too prone to spreading on their own and too dangerous to civilians. The US does not have a defensive anthrax capability (I believe), because it's too much of a liability.
Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by MajesticHobo on Thursday June 29, 2017 @01:03PM (#14664878)
What is a cyber weapon? Knowledge of a vulnerability? Exploit code? How do you propose regulating it? Much of this has been tried before and ended up hurting rather than helping.
Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by Sir_Substance on Thursday June 29, 2017 @12:19PM (#14664462)
Cyberweapons created by the USA were used to shut down the entire national hospital system of the UK, one of their biggest allies. Good job USA!

Iran is educated enough to make nuclear weapons, but you want their program shut down because you think they're not responsible enough to be trusted with nuclear weapons.

The US is educated enough to make cyber-weapons, but I want their program shut down because I think they're not responsible enough to be trusted with cyber-weapons.

Maybe the UK should go on the offensive, wipe a few NSA datacenters, for the long term safety of the British people?

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by sqeaky on Thursday June 29, 2017 @02:52PM (#14665910)
You are applying logic to politics, if that worked we wouldn't have problems.

We demand Iran disarm to shame them on the world stage as violators of non-proliferation treaties, and we only do this because they are our "enemy" if they weren't we would care. It cronyism and nepotism just on the scales of nations, and I don't think that can change for a while.

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by Quarrelsome on Thursday June 29, 2017 @09:49AM (#14663256)
so you want to live in a world where both countries don't have any power? Sounds Utopian.

Defence is only card in this game worth playing especially when it comes to infrastructure attacks.

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by thoth on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:07AM (#14663406)
Defense may be the only game worth playing, but how will that work? Unlike the real military where civilians simply don't own the hardware, in computer security they do.

NSA isn't a hardware or software vendor, and the corporations that are don't have much of a profit motive to heavily invest in security. They aren't actually liable for problems unlike say a car manufacturer that releases a faulty product, which leaves what exactly... reputation that takes a hit? But every vendor has bugs and security issues and the market isn't really punishing anyone.

Is the future effectively an enormous government subsidy to profitable corporations (i.e. NSA and other US government agencies basically become extensions of corporate America's QA department)? Is the future heavy regulations to create the proper financial incentives and/or penalties so corporations start seriously spending on security?

It's easy to say "the government should do something!!" but what exactly will that look like?

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by Quarrelsome on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:10AM (#14663432)
Regulate operating systems. Fund programs and research to work out how to create operating systems for our infrastructure that contain less zero days. Ensure we're the ones that find the zero days first.

The reason we're vulnerable is because we're unwilling to pay the cost of finding the exploits but people in developing nations ARE because they work for "less".

Right now our economies and systems reward those that fly by their pants and don't care for security. That is the problem. The free buffet of infinite growth from technology startups is the very thing that also gives us this pain and we need to learn to eat less.

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by SCHiM on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:24AM (#14663527)
I see that going wrong too. If operating systems need to be certified, where does that leave free open source projects?
Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by jessespears on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:45AM (#14663707)
This would take an extraordinary departure from our current politics. Government intruding on software would (rightly) cause cries from the most stalwart Free Software advocates and from proprietary software companies.

Can you imagine the outcry if a new Linux fork had to seek government approval in order to post their distribution?

Can you expect Google or Oracle to fail to lobby the government to make sure they don't have to get each major revision certified?

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by floatboth on Thursday June 29, 2017 @11:58AM (#14664284)
Not in order to post their distribution! Approval for usage in critical infrastructure.

Critical infrastructure, IMO, should:

- not use general purpose operating systems

- maybe not use general purpose computers (just build custom FPGA logic to control power grids and stuff)

- not use internet connected computers

- maybe not use computers at all when possible

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by CWuestefeld on Thursday June 29, 2017 @04:47PM (#14666729)
Regulate operating systems.

When we're trying to protect ourselves from the vulnerabilities hoarded by our government, I think that asking them to regulate the OS might just be a step backward.

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by andrewjl on Thursday June 29, 2017 @12:14PM (#14664434)
Regulation, especially for software powering critical systems. We'd have to have a good definition for what critical means, probably with different levels that escalate the security requirements.
Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by sqeaky on Thursday June 29, 2017 @03:07PM (#14666017)
Change the law and make them liable. This would let the market solve the problem, but there is no way microsoft, cisco and the like would go for it.
Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by sillysaurus3 on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:02AM (#14663362)
Yes, that would suck. But that's the aggresor's decision, not ours.

I'm not sure why we collectively decided to lack courage, but it's unsettling.

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by Quarrelsome on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:08AM (#14663415)
> I'm not sure why we collectively decided to lack courage

In this case courage is stupidity. Why waste time knocking out their power when we can spend that time making our power more secure. You're like a web master with a downed site due to a DDOS going:

> Well I've DDOSed the attacker's site so its okay

no its not, you've achieved nothing. Get with the program; this is a defence world not an offence one.

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by sillysaurus3 on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:23AM (#14663521)
In situations where Person A is attacking Person B and making it sound like Person A's solution is the only one, Person A is usually mistaken.

My mind is open. Convince me. Why is it a good idea to remove the threat of retaliation from our toolkit? It seems like one of the most persuasive reasons not to attack us.

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by Quarrelsome on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:34AM (#14663606)
I will attack you yet convince you that someone else attacked you. Now you're off attacking the wrong person and your power grid IS STILL OFFLINE.

Just put all the effort into keeping the grid up. Absorb all attacks and then export that IP and tech for healthy profit. Its the only winning move.

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by sillysaurus3 on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:40AM (#14663654)
Obviously attribution becomes far more important with cyberattacks, but that's a tangential point.

You're acting like the power grid going offline is equivalent to a thermonuclear explosion. Yes, it will suck, but it's temporary. And afterwards, those exploit vectors will be patched.

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by Quarrelsome on Thursday June 29, 2017 @10:55AM (#14663786)
> Obviously attribution becomes far more important with cyberattacks, but that's a tangential point.

No its not, its the whole point. The point of the age of information is that it is a departure from the age of blood and steel. The tactics of blood and steel that you are supporting have no place in this future and are counter-productive. The point of the age of information is that power is no longer solely in the hands of nations. Therefore treating it as a case of "stomping on the bad people" means your attack spread increases from all the nations in the world to all the people in the world. Added to that the evidence of those attacks can and will be forged. You're chasing shadows and its not worth it. Just build a better shield, that's all that matters.

Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by floatboth on Thursday June 29, 2017 @11:49AM (#14664207)
Yes. This. Old government people think of everything in terms of "weapons" and "wars" and they still think the word "cyber" is cool. We need to promote, like, a radical new school of thought about software: Creators of a system should be fully responsible for whatever damage the system causes. A bug is a bug, whether it's exploited by an outside actor or it happens during normal execution. Developers should be responsible for bugs. I like the "defective lock" analogy from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14663474
Re:Hacks Raise Fear Over N.S.A.’s Hold on Cyberweapons by Razengan on Thursday June 29, 2017 @02:36PM (#14665763)
> so you want to live in a world where both countries don't have any power? Sounds Utopian.

Or post-apocalyptic.