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Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by croon on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @05:59AM (#14643760)
> Americans, especially outside overcrowded urban areas, are courteous, helpful, hospitable people that are very tolerant of other people and ideas.

Do you care to elaborate on this? That's incongruent with voting records.

Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by humanrebar on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @06:24AM (#14643901)
I don't mind elaborating. I need to know which parts of the American voting record concerns you to be specific though.

I will say that America is very diverse. Various states and postal codes have wildly different attitudes about things and very few Americans want to change or homogenize that.

Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by piva00 on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:43AM (#14644427)
For instance: I know that Texas is a red state but was quite surprised to find out that the largest urban centres are actually blue. And it seems that this trend follows all along the country, large urbanised areas are blue (even in red states) while the countryside votes more for the GOP, meaning a more conservative worldview (and that clashes with the statement "courteous, helpful, hospitable people that are very tolerant of other people and ideas".

I understand that people from the countryside can be seen as kinder towards people they like but my impression is that hatred and prejudice is much more prevalent there... So care to elaborate if my impression is wrong?

Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by humanrebar on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @08:24AM (#14644704)
> I understand that people from the countryside can be seen as kinder towards people they like but my impression is that hatred and prejudice is much more prevalent there...

That's not my experience at all. I dealt with more overt racism in NYC than any tiny red state town, and I've spent plenty of time in both. There are racist people everywhere, but even in rural areas, they tend to be ignorant and antisocial so they are not really in any position to oppress anyone.

People tend to mistake talking heads on TV for actual people. People also tend to mistake voting patterns for personal quality of character. There's a caricature on TV (a bigoted one IMO) that small towns are full of shirtless racist rednecks that throw beer cans at all minorities that wander in town. That's because it's a useful trope and an easy way to advance a narrative. Every all town church I'm aware of sends missionaries overseas to build schools, wells, etc. That doesn't mesh with the "we hate foreigners" narrative. I had dinner in a tiny red state town last week. The most popular place in town is run by Mexican immigrants. And it's thriving. Life is more complicated than most media lets on.

Even if we narrowed everything down to political views, the traditional red state view is that diversity in government (federalism) provides better prosperity, diversity, justice, freedom, and so on. Most red state types are fine leaving Colorado with its marijuana and Nevada with its brothels. They value the ability to self determine more than they value the ability to control other people.

Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by splawn on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @10:54AM (#14645918)
The GOP continues to be impregnated with racism thanks to the southern strategy.[0] If you don't think out in the open racist culture is alive, well and considered normal in the rural south, you are fooling yourself.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by humanrebar on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @01:28PM (#14647362)
I think there are overt racists, but they are in a minority and certainly not exclusive to any political party.

Though this is a hard conversation to have meaningfully since different people mean different things by racism. The context here is a Northern European visiting the U.S. I think it would be a bit of a stretch to say they'll have a hard time in the rural south. I'd say (accented) rural Southerners would have a harder time in NYC than Scandanavian visitors would have in Mobile.

Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by tptacek on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @02:07PM (#14647718)
Accented rural southerners would have no trouble whatsoever in NYC. This is one of those analogies that sounds like it should be true, but has no basis in fact.

It's also a super weird comparison. Southern intolerance is subtextually about animus towards African Americans and Latinos. Nobody is arguing that a Scandinavian would have any trouble in Mobile.

Further: Mobile is a weird choice for a comparison as well, since it's comparatively urban and well-educated. Mobile is more diverse than many parts of Chicago. When we talk about Southern racism, we're generally not talking about the urban south.

Finally, and I want to make this point gingerly, but if we want to drag US political parties into this discussion, the Republican party is almost mathematically determined to be more racist than the Democratic party, which is a coalition of labor, minorities, and liberal whites. It's also just empirically true that the Republican party harbors more overt racists, but we don't have to dive into a lot of value judgements about conservatism and nationalism to conclude that; we can just observe that the Democrats have African American and Latino voters as one of the foundations of their constituency.

Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by hueving on Thursday June 29, 2017 @06:07AM (#14662026)
>almost mathematically determined to be more racist than the Democratic party, which is a coalition of labor, minorities, and liberal whites

The assumption you build this on is that those groups are not more racist than the groups in the Republican party. The only way you could even make that kind of jump is if you subscribe to the definition of racism where you can't be racist if you are systematically oppressed in some regard. Is that the case?

If not, then you will definitely need some data showing that blue collar workers, minorities, etc have lower rates of racism.

The vast majority of racism I hear (assuming the definition based on race discrimination) comes from uneducated people, regardless of political affiliation.

Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by tptacek on Thursday June 29, 2017 @09:33AM (#14663128)
I'm making a pretty simple demographic point and not really interested in hacking my way through this briar patch of value judgements and careful parsing. Substitute whatever term you like --- maybe "anti-black anti-Latino racism" --- for the simple one I used.
Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by hueving on Friday June 30, 2017 @11:04AM (#14671161)
Ok. That's still not backed up by sound reasoning though. Just because one party has more white people does not correlate with anti-Latino racism. Why would you think that's the case?

Living in the bay area, I've encountered more anti-black racism from Chinese people than any white people. Should I take that to presume whichever party has more asians is automatically racist against black people?

Just because a party has more people of a specific skin color than another says nothing about racist behavior. Anything else would imply that the Bernie Sanders crowd is the most racist group of them all (skews very heavily white).

Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by tptacek on Friday June 30, 2017 @02:53PM (#14672914)
This is pretty silly. Less than 30% of Latinos and less than 5% of African Americans are Republicans. The balance are Democrats. The Democratic party simply can't be institutionally bigoted against those groups and survive as a party; those groups are core parts of the Democratic coalition; the Democrats in a real way simply are the Latino and African American vote.

That's all I'm saying. I am not psychoanalyzing Republicans in general. Most Republicans probably aren't racist. That's not my point.

I'm really not interested in what you think Chinese Americans think, sorry.

Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by hueving on Friday June 30, 2017 @06:07PM (#14673853)
>The Democratic party simply can't be institutionally bigoted against those groups and survive as a party; those groups are core parts of the Democratic coalition; the Democrats in a real way simply are the Latino and African American vote.

Of course it can be bigoted. Those minorities do not make up a majority of the party and as long as they feel the goals of the party overall help them more than Republicans they will put up with whatever racist crap that comes from Democrats (e.g. "tell em you're a Muslim" Pelosi).

It's all about tradeoffs, a party that offers racist policies in your favor and/or the refusal to enforce laws that affect many of your people is better than a party with no favors offered, even if the former is filled with bigoted morons.

>I'm really not interested in what you think Chinese Americans think

And I never offered you what I thought they think, so go attack some other strawman to attempt to gain some moral high ground.

Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by zaccus on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @02:24PM (#14647877)
I have a southern accent, have visited NYC, currently live in Chicago. People in both cities are just as friendly as people anywhere else. What you're saying simply isn't true.

People in rural areas seem to think of "city people" as brash, always in a hurry, always on their cell phones, etc. whereas they themselves are courteous, friendly, would give you the shirt off their back, etc. I grew up in a small town in the south and heard this sort of thing a lot, but it's bullshit. It's just one parochial stereotype among many.

Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by tptacek on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @02:14PM (#14647784)
The Republican party contains more overt racists than the Democratic party, but the formulation in your comment is tendentious and hugely oversimplifies the situation.
Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by splawn on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @04:34PM (#14649142)
I wasn't aware of the formulation in my comment when I made it. I was trying to rebut a comment that I felt had a little bit of denial running through it. I am clumsy with words though.
Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by Trill-I-Am on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @10:41AM (#14645785)
What about the red states bordering Colorado suing to try to get federal courts to nullify its legalization?
Re:Author of cURL denied entry to the USA by dagw on Tuesday June 27, 2017 @07:51AM (#14644474)
was quite surprised to find out that the largest urban centres are actually blue.

Looking at maps like these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2016_Nationwide_US_presid...

http://www.270towin.com/2016-house-election/

is always useful to remind yourself that there are still plenty of 'red' pockets in deeply 'blue' states and vice versa. In 2016 presidential election I believe there where only two states where all counties went Republican and two states where all went Democratic.