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Re:A homeless man who turned his life around by offering boo... by rayiner on Monday June 19, 2017 @04:58PM (#14590403)
> But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic.

Is there a morally relevant distinction between mental illness and bad work ethic? There is a lot of research to suggest that things we associate with "bad work ethic" (e.g. lack of impulse control) appear extremely early in childhood development and aren't things people necessarily have much control over.

We need to stop moralizing things that people have no control over. We've realized this in a limited way--it is no longer acceptable to make fun of people with intellectual disabilities (IQ < 70). But there is still a weird doughnut hole were it is perfectly acceptable to make fun of people with 70 < IQ < 90. Your mental abilities are mostly an accident of birth, like having rich parents. There is no moral dimension to it.

There is a kernel of something I agree with in your post, though: social structures can add a lot of value in helping people who might not be that bright or might have problems with impulse control to lead productive lives. That's a major shortcoming of our current approaches to fighting poverty, which emphasize individualism.

Re:A homeless man who turned his life around by offering boo... by Retric on Monday June 19, 2017 @05:24PM (#14590581)
Lead poisoning and 'bad work ethic/poor impulse control' can look very similar.

However, poor work ethic as a mental shortcut plays into the just world viewpoint. Where lead poisoning contradicts it which is IMO why so many people think in terms of work ethic.

Re:A homeless man who turned his life around by offering boo... by jdietrich on Monday June 19, 2017 @06:05PM (#14590803)
>Lead poisoning and 'bad work ethic/poor impulse control' can look very similar.

As can the effects of traumatic brain injury and chronic abuse or neglect.

Re:A homeless man who turned his life around by offering boo... by harryh on Monday June 19, 2017 @07:19PM (#14591146)
The correlation between intelligence (IQ) and conscientiousness (work ethic) is not at all clear btw. Some studies have actually found a negative correlation.
Re:A homeless man who turned his life around by offering boo... by alphonsegaston on Monday June 19, 2017 @09:01PM (#14591526)
The most intelligent people I've know have tended to be quite lazy. The most successful were often smart, but more commonly passionate and hard working.
Re:A homeless man who turned his life around by offering boo... by waterhouse on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @12:42AM (#14592255)
Most highly intelligent people spend the majority of their K-12 schooling taking classes designed for average-intelligence people who match their chronological age. They can achieve at a given level in class with much less effort than those around them, and they generally aren't given a strong incentive to achieve more. If they develop the habit of working hard to achieve at their limits, it's probably because they have a strong interest that they pursue outside of school.
Re:A homeless man who turned his life around by offering boo... by rayiner on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @11:20AM (#14595259)
I'm not saying that IQ and work ethic are linked, but rather that both are things that are to various degrees outside your control: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/to-predict-succes.... Whether it's biological factors (e.g. there are measurable differences in the brains of violent offenders), environmental factors (lead), or nurture, by the time someone has reached the age of moral culpability, I'm not sure how much control they have over what we call "work ethic" or "self discipline."
Re:A homeless man who turned his life around by offering boo... by hasenj on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @12:24AM (#14592191)
> But there is still a weird doughnut hole were it is perfectly acceptable to make fun of people with 70 < IQ < 90

I agree that what we call "bad work ethic" is just something that happens to people in that IQ range.

Now the problem is, what are we supposed to do with these people?

If I were to start a small business, I would probably like to avoid having such people work for me.

The only entities that can afford to hire these people are large corporations like Walmart and McDonalds, but because they are large and powerful, they also get to abuse these people.

Re:A homeless man who turned his life around by offering boo... by dx034 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @02:27AM (#14592579)
Something like lack of impulse control can be learned to a certain degree. As can other things that are associated with bad work ethics.

A solution could be that the government offers help for people who struggle finding jobs. Training courses can help them finding (and most important, keeping) a job.

Some European countries already have courses like this and underemployment there seems lower than in the US. But crucially, free mental healthcare is an important part of this so that those who need help can get it.

Re:A homeless man who turned his life around by offering boo... by BoiledCabbage on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @04:31AM (#14592961)
> I agree that what we call "bad work ethic" is just something that happens to people in that IQ range.

I want to very clearly point out, that the fact that you agree doesn't in any remote way make the statement any more factual. This again is an unsubstantiated claim, presented with zero evidence.

Re:A homeless man who turned his life around by offering boo... by hasenj on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @06:16AM (#14593358)
Thank you for your disagreement. I would like to point out that your disagreement does not in any remote way make my statement any less (or any more) factual.

I don't know why you assume the claim is unsubstantiated. I think it makes a lot of sense that people with lower IQs will have a lot of trouble in life.

Maybe it's not due to bad work ethic but merely due to them not having the cognitive ability to function properly in society in such a way that allows for the positive exchange of value.

I maintain that people with low IQ have this problem that makes it incredibly difficult for them to climb out of poverty, and I think this claim is very much substantiated, but I am not a scientist so I cannot back this up, but I have heard it on multiple occasions from people who I consider authorities on the subject.

Re:A homeless man who turned his life around by offering boo... by taway_1212 on Tuesday June 20, 2017 @08:17AM (#14593953)
> perfectly acceptable to make fun of people with 70 < IQ < 90

I have pretty high IQ and a mediocre at best work ethic. I don't think these things are linked.