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Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by ollifi on Sunday June 18, 2017 @05:31AM (#14579817)
I think that's how insurance works on a basic level, but when it is run as business you try to maximize the profit. Healthcare is one of the best businesses around because in the event your client gets very sick they are willing to pay pretty much everything to get better. You can design the insurance around these events and average customer does not really pay attention.

State run healthcare ruins the market by basing the cost of treatments to pretty much what they cost to perform rather than how much person is willing to pay for them. Of course it does not work quite so smoothly in the real world, but enough that countries with public healthcare seem to be cheaper.

Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by anothercomment on Sunday June 18, 2017 @05:45AM (#14579852)
In theory, competition should take care of the escalating costs, though?
Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by patryn20 on Sunday June 18, 2017 @05:58AM (#14579896)
In a "market" in which costs are unpredictable and not disclosed until AFTER care is complete, there is not truly competition.

Try asking a cardiologist or neurologist for a fixed price estimate before a test is run. If you press the issue you'll be labeled a "confrontational" or "hostile" patient and rejected from the practice.

Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by geomark on Sunday June 18, 2017 @10:25AM (#14580759)
This is what drives me crazy about US health care. Where I currently live the estimated costs are given to you in advance, even advertised on the websites of hospitals and clinics. But back in the US where I used to live it is just like you said - nobody will quote prices.
Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by anothercomment on Sunday June 18, 2017 @10:41AM (#14580829)
They will reject you as long as they have enough other patients who don't care about the price. Somewhere the systemic error is injected into the system. There has to be a way to fix it or improve it.
Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by eeZah7Ux on Monday June 19, 2017 @07:30AM (#14586085)
In some countries it's illegal to refuse service to customers unless they are doing something illegal. This applies to shops and restaurants as well.
Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by gehwartzen on Monday June 19, 2017 @01:02AM (#14584717)
The inresting thing is that it is very easy to get a detailed quote for any medical procedure that is not covered by insurance and payed for out of pocket by the consumer directly.
Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by sjg007 on Sunday June 18, 2017 @08:33AM (#14580381)
Or even a dentist.
Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by krallja on Sunday June 18, 2017 @09:38AM (#14580577)
Dentists are much easier to get estimates from, because they know most of their patients are paying out of pocket. My last visit they gave me an estimate for my checkup and cleaning without my even asking.
Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by s_kilk on Sunday June 18, 2017 @06:06AM (#14579917)
In addition to the price issues pointed out in a sibling comment, you can't pause mid-heart-attack to shop around for the best deal.

It's time to admit that not all problems are amenable to market solutions.

Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by anothercomment on Sunday June 18, 2017 @07:53AM (#14580266)
I am not yet convinced it is not amenable. For example who gets to serve a city with emergency services? I guess there could be bidders to the city council, offering services for a certain price. That would lead to competition.

Likewise, insurances would negotiate rates for certain procedures. Of course it is not the task of the patient during cardiac arrest to do so. But the patient would choose the insurance provider.

Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by crdoconnor on Sunday June 18, 2017 @08:48AM (#14580414)
>I am not yet convinced it is not amenable. For example who gets to serve a city with emergency services? I guess there could be bidders to the city council, offering services for a certain price. That would lead to competition.

This sort of thing is usually fertile breeding ground for corruption and backhanders. The NHS has been dogged by scandals caused by this sort of pseudo-privatization.

It works for smaller and short term contracts, especially for things which the private sector also needs, but the larger the size of the contract the more likely it is that the price will be determined by backhanders and which ministers play golf with which chief execs.

For something the size of "supply a city with emergency services", you could practically guarantee that the city council leader's cushy post-political job would be determined by which company they picked.

tl;dr read up on the principal/agent problem.

Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by anothercomment on Sunday June 18, 2017 @10:23AM (#14580751)
But then how can it be solved? With the blockchain? (that was sarcasm, although, perhaps worth thinking about - transparency, at least)

Sure, governments/councils spending other people's money is always a fertile ground for corruption.

Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by crdoconnor on Sunday June 18, 2017 @11:59AM (#14581216)
It's not that hard provided the government is motivated to clamp down on it: keep the contract sizes small, keep the contract durations short, make the transparency absolute and the bidding process transparent, open and fair.

Most privatization efforts come about as an attempt to inject corruption, however, so arguing that it could be done in a fairer and cheaper way is something of a moot point: if it were going to be cheaper and fairer they wouldn't be pushing for it in the first place.

Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by anothercomment on Monday June 19, 2017 @05:15AM (#14585556)
"Most privatization efforts come about as an attempt to inject corruption"

Huh - citation needed? I've never heard that claim before. Corruption pretty much needs governments, who else are you going to bribe?

To me competition seems the only surefire way to keep prices fair/low. Yes, motivated governments in theory could do everything. A supercomputer could theoretically compute the perfect prices and allocations for everything. But no such computer exists, and markets are the only approximation available. You can not rely on governments to be motivated to be selfless and good. Even if perhaps some individuals are, in the long run the incentives are just not aligned, and it takes just a few bad apples to ruin the system.

Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by eeZah7Ux on Monday June 19, 2017 @08:07AM (#14586260)
> who gets to serve a city with emergency services?

It's worth noticing that most of ambulance services in the world are run entirely or in a good part by volunteers and no-profit organizations to ensure honesty and quality of the service.

Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by eeZah7Ux on Monday June 19, 2017 @08:00AM (#14586228)
> It's time to admit that not all problems are amenable to market solutions.

...to put it mildly. Applying the market law to medicine encourages the most inhuman behaviors.

Re:Your own company? You can do it (2011) by ollifi on Sunday June 18, 2017 @06:21AM (#14579967)
Yes I agree. I don't know if this Charlie Munger musing [1] on how some fields figure out not to engage in cut throat competition is relevant here.

[1]http://theinvestmentsblog.blogspot.fi/2014/09/munger-on-airl...

full speech

[2]http://old.ycombinator.com/munger.html