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Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by tptacek on Sunday June 20, 2010 @09:58PM (#1447656)
As the person on Hacker News least likely to be generous to Joe Lieberman's perspective on anything, and most particularly inclined to think poorly of anything he has to say about the balance of civil rights and national security, and, unfortunately, one of the small-ish number of active HN people who deal with the problems "shutting off parts of the Internet" would attempt to solve, let me just say one thing.

I think he's right.

IAmA person who thinks he might manage to defend this crazy-sounding Lieberman argument. Ask me anything. I may not be able to answer everything, though.

Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by metamemetics on Monday June 21, 2010 @12:23AM (#1447943)
1) In the event of a true national emergency the President would order action to be taken without a law in place. Ex: Posse Commitatus, the military can not be used for policing but past Presidents have regularly violated this law. If the cause is mildly just enough, the resources will not be invested to punish them.

2) There has been ZERO concrete examples given of situations that would necessitate use of this new power and why. The Patriot Act was a response to terrorism yet has been used exclusively to investigate money laundering for organized crime. Because this is also a law against an unspecific fear and not against a highly specified vulnerability, what this law will actually be used for is anyone's guess and, like the patriot act, its true use will be invented much later.

3) This IS the authoritarian Great Firewall. Giving the president the power to kill parts of the internet is the SAME THING as allowing executive branch agencies to arbitrarily filter specific content.

4) Coercing ISPs to install traffic-control gateways controlled by the executive branch is the legitimization of domestic spying.

5) It's an unnecessary expansion of the department of Homeland Security to include a cyberwarfare branch. The Department of Homeland Security is quite possibly the most wasteful branch of our government. Homeland Security contracts have been some of the worst of the worst of pork-barrel spending.

6) Lieberman is a tool.

Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by ihodes on Sunday June 20, 2010 @11:12PM (#1447805)
Explain to me why this would be a good idea.

Where I stand, giving to one person the power to completely disable the primary and most efficient way of communication is frightening and awful.

The reasoning behind it? We can stop communications from attacking countries in times of war.

The reality is that there are many other modes of communication for the kind of 1 to 1 communication an attacker would need, but there are far fewer ways for the type of 1 to 1000's communication activists and thinkers need.

Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by tptacek on Sunday June 20, 2010 @11:38PM (#1447854)
I don't think the reasoning behind this has much to do with "communications", but has rather a lot more to do with the industrial and financial infrastructural systems that have ended up connected in one way or another to the Internet.
Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by krakensden on Monday June 21, 2010 @12:48AM (#1447988)
Wouldn't it make more sense to disconnect them from the internet than to try and shutdown communication to/from some sections of the world? The ability to momentarily create a strong perimeter defense doesn't make much sense to me- it would only work against an attacker that didn't plan for it.

As soon as the world knows you have a kill switch, any organized attack will have domestic components, and which means that you still have the possibility of the president screwing up the normal economy, but no additional defense.

Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by ihodes on Sunday June 20, 2010 @11:51PM (#1447879)
Regardless, it would have an effect on communications.

And so, why would it be a good idea? That's still what I haven't hear. (It also sounds like your justifications differ from Leiberman's–he's interested in the communications aspect.)

Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by MichaelSalib on Monday June 21, 2010 @12:24AM (#1447944)
Can you please explain precisely why the President does not have the legal authority to compel internet providers to follow his instructions during a time of war right now? Please cite independent legal authorities.

Also, given the atrocious way in which Patriot Act powers have been abused, let alone the manner in which illegal telecom surveillance has been completely ignored (silly people, prosecution of criminals is only for citizens, not government agents!), why exactly should we given Lieberman the benefit of the doubt on these issues at all? Lieberman has failed to investigate any of those issues despite chairing the Committee on Homeland Security and Government Affairs. What else does Lieberman have to do in order to convince us that he does not respect civil liberties at all?

Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by mikeleeorg on Sunday June 20, 2010 @10:27PM (#1447700)
I can see his point, and the underlying goal (to protect critical Internet-connected systems from cyber criminals) is noble.

But I do have a question: Would "shutting off parts of the Internet" really work to deter cyber criminals? I honestly don't know the answer, but would love to hear it.

Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by tptacek on Sunday June 20, 2010 @10:55PM (#1447768)
No. Shutting off parts of the Internet wouldn't put even a tiny dent in cybercrime. There are, however, circumstances in which it might save people's lives, particularly people who rely on continuously available electricity to live.
Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by krakensden on Monday June 21, 2010 @12:54AM (#1448000)
What circumstances? I realize I already asked you a similar question earlier in the thread, but I'm not trying to be combative, I promise :).
Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by jawn on Monday June 21, 2010 @12:47AM (#1447987)
I see, so the argument is then utility operators can't install ACLs so we need to have the government do it for them?

For patients requiring treaments to stay alive, there are generators at every hospital and ambulances to pick up patients in dire need. Even taking your ludicrous scenario of total US power outage attack at face value...oil will still continue to burn without the internet. :D

Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by gojomo on Monday June 21, 2010 @12:07AM (#1447912)
In an actual war or national emergency, couldn't the president just ask nicely, and get enthusiastic compliance from all the necessary major actors? Why is an explicit new power required?

Isn't it likely that in the event of actual cyber-sabotage, private-sector experts might discover the attacks first, and share countermeasures rapidly among themselves, without any participation of the (slow-moving, often ham-handed) White House and Defense Department?

Might the existence of this bill's new power -- and followup requests to formalize it in automatic systems -- encourage cyberspace national defense planning to over-rely on crude traffic kill commands to the private sector compared to other defense-in-depth?

Re:Lieberman tells Web users to ‘relax’ about ‘kill switch’ by DanielBMarkham on Monday June 21, 2010 @09:42AM (#1448754)
tcptacek is correct: there is some need for government action here ahead of a crisis. The internet, while doing vastly more good than harm, has also created systemic risks which need to be proactively managed. Waiting for a catastrophe is howling mad.

I'm much more concerned with how "emergency" is defined. Ideally I'd like to see both executive and judicial involvement in mucking around with the net, since in addition to defending the nation under attack you are also effectively constraining hundreds of millions of people's civil rights in various ways at the same time. That's a little too much power for one schmuck and anything that might be called an emergency.