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Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by jules on Sunday June 20, 2010 @08:37PM (#1447525)
Wouldn't that be an unstable position? Even if the earth was a perfect ball and the cave was a perfect ball exactly in the middle then the gravity everywhere inside the cave is zero, so if you gave the black hole a little push it would crash into the earth again.
Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by ars on Sunday June 20, 2010 @08:51PM (#1447556)
The center of the earth is the position that is "lowest" if you moved away from it gravity would cause it to "fall down" back into the center.
Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by vecter on Sunday June 20, 2010 @10:35PM (#1447720)
That is completely false. Modelling the inside of the earth as a hollow spherical shell, the force inside at all points due to the gravity of the surrounding shell is 0.
Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by ars on Sunday June 20, 2010 @10:43PM (#1447744)
But it's not actually a shell.

In a solid sphere there is always force, and it always points to, and is lowest, at the center.

Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by vecter on Sunday June 20, 2010 @11:04PM (#1447790)
I assumed the black hole carved out a spherical hole in the center of the Earth. If it was inside it, then it would be inside a spherical shell (a very thick one at that).
Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by ars on Sunday June 20, 2010 @11:43PM (#1447866)
But, you said it would be unstable, while actually if it crashed into the wall the resultant forces would put it back somewhere in the middle.

Or more accurately oscillating back and forth in the middle, but not touching the wall.

If there was any vapor in the middle (which seems likely to me, considering it would be a perfect vacuum at pretty extreme temperatures), then the gas would eventually slow down the oscillations and it would end up exactly in the middle.

Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by joe_the_user on Monday June 21, 2010 @03:43AM (#1448246)
Well, it would be sucking up the matter on the walls as well..

BTW, Sci fans of yesteryear were disappointed when it was discovered that Dyson Spheres and Ring Worlds gravitationally unstable...

Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by ars on Monday June 21, 2010 @04:34AM (#1448290)
> it would be sucking up the matter on the walls as well

It won't. The first time it touches (or comes near) the wall it will take what it can get, but it will never go farther than that. There is nothing that will "push" it closer to the walls.

Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by jules on Monday June 21, 2010 @08:22AM (#1448566)
You are missing the crucial point. The force in a cave in the middle of the earth is ZERO, there is NO force directed to the center of the cave. This is not an intuitively correct statement, but if you carry out the calculation you will see that it is true. If you take a solid sphere and carve out a spherical cave in the center, then everywhere (not just in the center) inside this cave all the little forces from all the atoms of the big solid sphere cancel out.

So this means that inside the cave the black hole will just move in one direction, until it hits the wall. Then it will suck up some mass and be pulled back to the center. Then it will suck up some mass on the other side, etc.

The only way the black hole will remain in the cave is if you put it in the cave with exactly zero velocity to begin with. As soon as one atom falls into it it will start to eat up the earth.

Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by ars on Monday June 21, 2010 @10:09AM (#1448813)
No, I am not missing that point.

You are missing a point.

Yes, inside the cave there is no force. But the black hole can hit the wall just once. After that it can not go any farther.

If passes thought/inside the wall it will be pulled back to the center, and the momentum exchange with the earth will slow it down (so next time it won't go as far). If it was just touching the wall, then that is as far as it can possibly go.

So once it's inside it's little cave, it's done. It can't eat anymore. (Unless of course there is no cave and the earth feeds it, but we are assuming a cave.)

You are missing three points: one is that if there is no cave, and it's oscillating through the earth, it will be pulled to the center. Two is that it looses momentum each time through the earth. And three is that once it's inside it's hollow cave it can no longer reach the wall.

Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by jules on Monday June 21, 2010 @04:38PM (#1450007)
I don't know what to say. On one hand you seem to agree that there is no force to slow the black hole down inside the cave, but on the other hand you claim that the black hole will remain inside the cave.

> You are missing three points: one is that if there is no cave, and it's oscillating through the earth, it will be pulled to the center.

Agreed.

> Two is that it looses momentum each time through the earth.

I'm not so sure about that. Mass is added to the black hole, and perhaps this causes the total momentum to increase.

> And three is that once it's inside it's hollow cave it can no longer reach the wall.

If it is stopped inside the cave. But there is no force to stop it.

Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by ars on Monday June 21, 2010 @06:02PM (#1450227)
Well we agree on the basics, that's good.

Imagine a tiny black hole arriving on earth. It grabs some mass. The black hole is moving, but the mass it ate is not. So rather than free falling, it looses momentum. As it falls through the earth it keeps doing that.

So it will not rebound back up to the top at the same height it fell. It will be lower. The second time through the same thing will happen.

Each time it oscillates it will get lower and lower.

Next. Say the black hole is a bit bigger. And it eats some mass on one side of the earth - now there is an imbalance. There is more mass on the other side. So the forces will cause it to slow down more than it otherwise would.

When it finally settles down enough to make a cave, it will "swing" as much as it can. But each swing can not be any higher than the one before. Over time, with random atoms falling into the cave it, it will come to rest at the exact center.

Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by jules on Monday June 21, 2010 @07:11PM (#1450382)
Assuming the cave is spherical, each swing will reach the other side, because inside the cave the black hole will not be slowed down, do you agree? So in this perfect situation, it is impossible that the black hole will come to stop exactly in the center. Even if it was stopped exactly in the center, if one atom hits it from one side, the black hole will crash into the other side (but slowly of course).
Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by ars on Tuesday June 22, 2010 @03:15AM (#1451198)
I see your point (I didn't before).

There is no force on the black hole, so if it moved at all it would crash into the wall. Only when it actually ate some of the wall would it turn around. So each swing would eat more and more.

Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by jules on Sunday June 20, 2010 @09:42PM (#1447634)
Not if the black hole carved a spherical cave there. The forces in all directions cancel each other out inside the spherical cave.
Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by merraksh on Sunday June 20, 2010 @10:29PM (#1447706)
In the perfectly spherical earth hypothesis, being the center of mass in the black hole, wouldn't there be a resulting force towards the center, although very small?

[EDIT] Hmm I think I see the point. The resulting force would be proportional to the ratio (black hole mass / earth's mass). Very small indeed.

Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by vecter on Sunday June 20, 2010 @10:38PM (#1447727)
Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by ars on Sunday June 20, 2010 @10:47PM (#1447755)
That's for a hollow shell.

For a solid sphere, there is always force toward the center. (And the closer to the center the lower the force, reaching 0 in the middle.)

Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by jules on Monday June 21, 2010 @08:31AM (#1448583)
No, the force is EXACTLY zero, not just very small.
Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by ars on Monday June 21, 2010 @10:11AM (#1448818)
Inside the cave yes, but not when it's inside the solid mass of the earth. Inside a solid sphere the force is toward the center.
Re:How to destroy the Earth (completely) by jules on Monday June 21, 2010 @04:41PM (#1450015)
Yes, but we're talking about the situation where there is a cave?