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Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by numerlo on Friday June 02, 2017 @11:51AM (#14470795)
Google is a monopoly in the search engine market and monopolies are heavily regulated.
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by jessriedel on Friday June 02, 2017 @12:03PM (#14470889)
This isn't really a regulated monopoly in the sense of a utility. It more has to do with the illegal practice of using a monopoly in one market (search) to gain advantage in another (translation, etc.). Right or wrong, that's where the line is often drawn.
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by pesenti on Friday June 02, 2017 @12:10PM (#14470971)
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by s3r3nity on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:30PM (#14471780)
Yes and no - it's using a competitive advantage in one market to drive anti-competitive / unfair practices in another market. In Google's case, they're not quite _requiring_ you to use a service they prioritize ahead of others.

Hypothetical example: company A has such a large market share and super wide margins in the market for widgets, so they decide to enter the market for books and undercut all of the competition on prices. They can fund that undercutting strategy with the margin from their widget business, but it's not quite fair / competitive because of the "moat" that they've built.

For the search market, it's a little less clean-cut, but I can see both sides. I am old enough to remember MapQuest back in the day as the primary mapping tool most people used, but there was a big hoopla/outcry that Google was possibly prioritizing an inferior product (Google Maps at the time) in its search rankings so that the tool could get more usage and get better, at the expense of MapQuest. At the time it was virtually impossible to prove, so it didn't go anywhere.

On the other side, Google has argued that super-low switching costs exist in the search engine market, so Google doesn't _really_ have a monopoly. This is where my knowledge of anti-competitive / monopolistic law breaks down (as well as where I ethically stand as a user,) as I'm not quite sure what should determine a monopoly: the market share _alone_, or the switching costs with competitors for the consumer?

Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by dragonwriter on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:35PM (#14471817)
What normally determines a monopoly is market or pricing power—the ability to raise prices in some range without losing customers to competitors.

It's plausible that Google has market/pricing power in search advertising. It's less plausible that they have that in search.

Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by certifiedloud on Friday June 02, 2017 @12:38PM (#14471232)
Market dominance is not the same as a monopoly.
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by tyingq on Friday June 02, 2017 @12:46PM (#14471307)
Eric Schmidt gave an interesting answer to Senator Herb Kohl during antitrust hearings.

Senator Kohl: "But you do recognize that in the words that are used in antitrust kind of oversight, your market share constitutes monopoly, dominant--special power, dominant firm, monopoly firm? Do you recognize you're in that area?"

Mr. Schmidt: "I would agree, Senator, that we're in that area. Again, with apologies because I'm not a lawyer, my understanding of monopoly findings is it's actually a judicial process..."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CHRG-112shrg71471/html/CHRG-11...

Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by certifiedloud on Friday June 02, 2017 @12:56PM (#14471404)
Google doesn't have the "durable market power" described here: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...

They can't raise prices and exclude competitors long term.

Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by tyingq on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:06PM (#14471511)
This internal FTC report that was leaked: http://graphics.wsj.com/google-ftc-report/

Has this conclusion: "Google has unlawfully maintained its monopoly over general search and search advertising"

The report ended up being buried, but it at least shows that credible people with lots of experience in the area believe strongly they are a monopoly.

Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by certifiedloud on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:14PM (#14471623)
That's a really great source. Though they do note that Google's market power isn't all that durable (because they don't charge, and competitors exist), they obviously conclude that they have unlawfully obtained monopolistic status.
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by Spivak on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:09PM (#14471545)
You don't think Chrome's new ad blocker is an example of excluding their competitors in advertising?
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by matt4077 on Friday June 02, 2017 @02:08PM (#14472083)
> They can't raise prices and exclude competitors long term.

Of course they can–remember: they get paid by advertisers, but it's the users that make the decision to use them.

For many businesses, search is the only online ad channel that actually works, and it's not straightforward to see how any competitor could catch up to their technological advantage in search.

Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by certifiedloud on Friday June 02, 2017 @07:26PM (#14473967)
Technological advantage is a legal means to become a monopoly, according to the SEC link above.
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by bhauer on Friday June 02, 2017 @12:02PM (#14470881)
But it's not. I never use Google for searching and I do a lot of searching. It's merely the largest search engine.
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by juandazapata on Friday June 02, 2017 @12:05PM (#14470916)
"It's the largest search engine, but I never use it, so it must not be a monopoly" :slow-clap:
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by mohaine on Friday June 02, 2017 @12:19PM (#14471057)
The lack of a viable alternative is the pretty much definition of monopoly. Just because lots of people use something doesn't mean there is a monopoly.

Def: "the exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service."

Google has a very nice search engine but I personally fail to see how they control the supply enough to be considered a monopoly. Sure most people use them, but that is by choice. There are viable alternatives.

Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by frgtpsswrdlame on Friday June 02, 2017 @12:30PM (#14471156)
Standard Oil only maxed out at 90% market share. US Steel only reached 60% of the steel market. There were banks other than JP Morgan. A more nuanced view of monopoly has to do with how much power they can wield in the markets.
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by mohaine on Friday June 02, 2017 @05:04PM (#14473298)
And of those which ones had successful antitrust litigation against them? Just Standard Oil I believe.
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by freehunter on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:13PM (#14471600)
Microsoft was declared a monopoly when every computer in my school was a Mac. Internet Explorer was considered a monopoly when everyone I knew was running Netscape/Firefox. It's obvious that the US federal government and the EU disagrees with you. You don't have to have 100% control over a market in order to be considered a monopoly.
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by matt4077 on Friday June 02, 2017 @02:10PM (#14472102)
"Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power"
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by tyingq on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:03PM (#14471480)
It's not just the EU that thinks Google has a monopoly in search. The FTC investigators from the US that looked into thought so as well. Their bosses decided not to act on it though, for reasons unknown.

The 160 page document[1] is very comprehensive, and worth a read. There's a few surprising things in there. The way they manually adjusted the algorithm several times specifically to demote "comparison shopping engines" (CSE) is very telling. Their manual testers liked CSE properties, and found the results relevant and useful. Google kept changing the criteria and questions until they found a combination that justified demoting them...so that their own CSE would get more traffic.

One of the conclusions: "Google has unlawfully maintained its monopoly over general search and search advertising"

[1]http://graphics.wsj.com/google-ftc-report/

Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by jhall1468 on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:09PM (#14471553)
The reason the FTC investigation was never going to go anywhere is because Google lacked durable market power. The reason they can't be accused of a monopoly is because they can't "raise prices" using their market dominance. Monopolies are not illegal in the US. Utilizing monopolies to harm consumers is.
Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by ocdtrekkie on Monday June 05, 2017 @05:13PM (#14492125)
I suggest you look into the former FTC Commissioner, Joshua Wright, which should give you some idea where the interests of the FTC's leadership has been, and likely will continue to be: https://theintercept.com/2016/11/15/google-gets-a-seat-on-th...

This says a lot more about why the FTC didn't go forward with its staff's recommendations to go forward with charges than anything else.

Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by tyingq on Friday June 02, 2017 @01:13PM (#14471607)
I don't know how definitive that is. Search may not have "prices", but they can use their monopoly in search to manipulate consumers for products they sell that do have prices. The CSE situation I mentioned is specifically something that does involve prices.

I can't find anything that says that's the reason action wasn't taken either.

Re:Google could face a $9B EU fine for rigging search result... by afghanPower on Friday June 02, 2017 @12:17PM (#14471033)
You somehow managed to contradict yourself in just a couple of sentences.