> SO is a HS teacher, her kids really really really do not want to learn

At the High School level, you've got prejudices built from years of engagement with the school system involved. If the schools in general are failing to engage appropriately, by that time large numbers of students are irrevocably alienated.

> Look, the super-crunchy idea of kids that are naturally curious is really just ... rich and white.

No, it's not, though privileged home environment (in rough order of importance, educated, rich, and white) all play a role both in preserving and enhancing that natural trait until hitting school (and through it, when the school experience is negative) and in making it less likely that outside social influences will interfere with realizing it, it's pretty clear that the basic inclination is universal.

> They get raped habitually by their mother's many 'boyfriends', they don't eat all weekend and if they do it's 2 bags of Cheetos, they have drugs forced on them by family members that really do think pot is medicine and can cure everything, their parents think school is nonsense and they should start working the fields to earn something for the family, etc.

Its certainly true (and I'm find of saying it) that the biggest problems in education are outside of the school system.

That does not mean, however, that the problems inside the school systems should be ignored (as difficult as they are, they are often far easier to address than the outside problems.)

Ok, 'education' is more than Calc and AP-US History, it's learning to live in your world and make of it what you will. Education does not start nor stop at the classroom door, it's an all-day and all-night thing. You are 'educated' by your whole community, including the cops that keep putting your step-dad in jail and your math teacher and your pastor, everyone.

So, trying to distance the classroom from the very real problems that these kids have outside of it is nonsense. You just cannot learn math without food in your belly or a 'safe' home, like, this is Maslow 101 stuff. A neighboring school district has a free/reduced breakfast and lunch program and they are kicking ass in SAT scores relative to my SO's school. You can polish the inner workings of a school to a mirror shine, but if the kids got no sleep or their mom just got shot up and died, it is totally mute.

You are saying that by the time the kids reach HS, if they are this damaged, just triage them. Well, this is kinda being put into practice these days. It depends on school district, but yeah, it's kinda charter school or bust now. Those folks that are too damaged to learn about King George from ~250 years ago are kinda just left behind. How that triage method figures into the 2016 election should be obvious in the results we have.

Look, you are on HN, I get the mindset here, you can just 'process' and 'app' your way out of any problem. If you haven't yet done so, work harder, take more LSD micro-doses, Juicero it, like, I get this a lot on here. But if you really are interested in the schools of this country, then you gotta listen to the teachers and admins and the kids.

Shit. Is. Fucked. Yo.

Why? Literally millions of reasons from literally millions of districts and millions of students. Where we are the issue is simple: poverty. Where you are, who knows. Go to your next PTA meeting in August and try to find out.

> You are saying that by the time the kids reach HS, if they are this damaged, just triage them

No, I'm saying that the attitudes of kids currently in high school and their unsuitability for certsin changes in educational methods is not indicative of the utility of changes in educational methods introduced earlier.

You have essentially invented a line of argument entirely unrelated to anything I actually.wrotr to argue against. I don't disagree with any of what you write, it's just entirely irrelevant to the post you are responding to, as it seems to be a rebuttal of an argument that exists in your kind, fueled by expectations driven by a stereotype you explicitly describe yourself as holding of the HN community.

> SO is a HS teacher, her kids really really really do not want to learn. ... [lots of examples of bad behavior at school and awful things that happen to kids]

Your point does seem reasonable that many kids would not thrive at all in a self-directed learning environment. But maybe you also (unintentionally) make the point that they shouldn't be in the traditional school either?

What is the function of the traditional school for students whose motivations are so far apart from the school's? Merely to detain them to avoid the bad behavior near their homes? Do those kids grow up to be adults who think "thank goodness I went to high school otherwise I would have done yet more crime+drugs?"

Yeah, so Betsy DeVos is like a broken clock here; she is narrowly right but for all the wrong reasons. Charter schools are heavily used in a neighboring school district, most are publicly funded though. They are doing great there. Many many reasons also come into that issue, but suffice to say that school uniforms, school lunches, strict no-phone policies, and a lack of a restorative-justice model really do help. Well that and a lack of racist elderly turbo-republican voters that will never raise a levy for new taxes for the schools. As I say in another comment, the main issue here is the poverty. I have no idea how to solve that, but I know chromebooks aren't a part of it.

Yeah, we're bitter, we know.

I think the biggest factor in the success of those schools isn't any specific policy. It's the selection bias. These kids have at least one parent/guardian that cares enough to put in the minimal effort required to get the kid in a different school. Some charters require parent volunteers, which ups the bar again. What actually happens in school might not matter as much as having the home support you need to be successful.

I think that's spot on, additionally I don't see why if someone identifies a child that has interests and WANTS to learn should be in the school similar to that either.

>Yeah, I'm gonna call shenanigans here. SO is a HS teacher, her kids really really really do not want to learn. They want to either play Minecraft, snapchat their genitals to each other, watch porn, or just gossip between themselves. Oh and drugs and sex in the bathroom, as usual. Occasionally, they turn to real crime and assault each other (one is still in a coma), pimp themselves out on Instagram for money (either sex), or hurt themselves (suicide clusters, it's 'a thing' now [1]). For about 1/3rd of her kids, if they come to school stoned to Pluto or drunk as skunks, that's a victory; at least they came to school and weren't out committing felonies or having felonies committed against them.

What you're describing is not a "kids" issue, but a mixture of culture and poor school policies. Schools are likely part of the problem you're describing.

Yes. You've proven my point exactly. Those kids don't have something that's interesting for them outside of Minecraft, snapchat etc. that you describe.

It's not the teachers job to find something interesting for children. I'm advocating for the abandoning of schooling as it is, so you're seeing it backwards to think that what I'm saying means to find this motivation in the current setting. It won't be found there.

> Look, the super-crunchy idea of kids that are naturally curious is really just ... rich and white. Like, kids in an inner city/dense urban environment have waaaaaay more serous shit to deal with.

Yes, and if they didn't have that shit to deal with, then they WOULD be more curious about life. Duh. It's only white because whites often don't have to face that shit. But no, you're wrong here. Every child is naturally curious about SOMETHING. Even playing Minecraft or watching porn involves a curiosity, however un/healthy.

Take those kids out of that environment (which school actually contributes a major part) and yes, they'd discover their own natural interests. Even if that's still Minecraft, that's fine.

Again, I'm advocating abandoning schooling as it is. I don't mean that we should find what motivates kids in the current school setting, but that letting go of the current school setting will allow the space for children to find their own interests.