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Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by graphitezepp on Thursday May 25, 2017 @03:04PM (#14419343)
As someone who trends towards heavily accommodating, I often seem to find my actions that I judge as selfish or arrogant are the ones that I get respect for. Definitely a phenomena I don't understand, but its real so it should be very valuable to learn where to draw the line.
Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by rdiddly on Thursday May 25, 2017 @03:20PM (#14419429)
Put it in the context of dominance and submission among apes and it becomes clear. The one who does nice things for you is displaying a submissive posture and trying to win your favor. They are probably your social inferior: beneath you in the hierarchy, or at most, a peer. The one who doesn't care about you and does what he wants, shows that he's above you in the hierarchy. And some people just can't resist their internal ape tendency to think "wow that's sure an impressive alpha ape right there." But some, who consider themselves alphas themselves, will take it as a challenge. Etc. etc. etc. All somewhat dreary thoughts in the light of soaring techno-optimist talk about the glory of the human spirit, but I think we're all still apes and I've said so, enough times on HN, that I'm at risk of becoming known as the "ape guy."

Manners are in fact detailed prescriptive means & methods for being submissive, or rather for sending submissive signals, as the default behavior in societies where there are more humans living together than normal, i.e. anytime after 1800 when the population really started to shoot upward and to urbanize. It ends up being very practical to train people to be submissive in an urban industrial society, because if you have a thousand supposed self-declared alpha-apes constantly fighting it out "out there," things become a mess very quickly.

Edit: to the respondents, I am intentionally keeping morality out of it (decency and so forth), because a strictly moralistic right/wrong judgment-based view didn't seem to be enhancing the parent's understanding. But dominance & submission, like morality, is just another narrow rubric for viewing the world, doesn't describe the whole world, and isn't the only way of describing the world. So it's best not to take it too far beyond a blurry big-picture view!

Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by le-mark on Thursday May 25, 2017 @03:59PM (#14419719)
This equating of manners to a submissive posture is odd to me. One wonders what is meant by "manners". Saying yes, please, thank you, and holding a door are by no means submissive acts. Table manners, or not acting boarish while dining, is not submissive. Conducting oneself in a respectful, cordial manner is not submissive.

However fawning and currying favor may indeed be submissive, but are not proscribed by any idea of "politeness" I am aware of. Excessive accommodation to the detriment of yourself and your interests would also be submissive in my view.

Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by lacampbell on Thursday May 25, 2017 @05:28PM (#14420273)
This equating of manners to a submissive posture is odd to me. One wonders what is meant by "manners". Saying yes, please, thank you, and holding a door are by no means submissive acts. Table manners, or not acting boarish while dining, is not submissive. Conducting oneself in a respectful, cordial manner is not submissive.

I disagree, I think it is more submissive than doing the opposite. But that's not a bad thing - people who are never submissive don't fit into society. They have terrible manners and drive dangerously, like you point out.

A certain amount of strength is admired, but too much and you're almost unilaterally rejected.

Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by n8n3k on Friday May 26, 2017 @06:16PM (#14427586)
Yes. Always and never submitting will both cost you your freedom. If you always submit you'll never get to to do anything you want, if you never submit you'll literally go to jail.

But some people might be so submissive by nature that "Never Submit" is good advice for them, because in those situations where they really should submit it will never even occur to them not to.

Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by dfraser992 on Thursday May 25, 2017 @03:48PM (#14419642)
Some distinctions need to be made here about manners, I think. Manners is largely social grease to keep interactions working smoothly; it is supposed to be about acknowledging the other person and treating them with some basic and fundamental respect. Real manners, in other words.

The manners you speak of are the hypocritical sort - e.g. calling Trump "Mr. President" even though he deserves no respect in any sort of situation, just because he is "the President". It is this sort of manners where people (i.e. the talking chimpanzees) get upset because social protocols are being violated - the social protocols used to enforce submission, dominance, and status. These social protocols are used to cover up all the bullshit talking chimpanzees like to get up to.

Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by mcguire on Friday May 26, 2017 @03:06PM (#14426393)
Manners are also a way of preventing two dominant individuals from coming into conflict over irrelevancies. And, if you don't think manners can be used aggressively...
Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by knopkop on Friday May 26, 2017 @09:32AM (#14423864)
This reminds me of 'Human Zoo' by the zoologist Desmond Morris, which is a fascinating read.
Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by graphitezepp on Thursday May 25, 2017 @03:29PM (#14419501)
Nice perspective. Also an ape guy (love reminding telling people we are just silly monkeys), and I think there is probably a lot of truth to looking at it this way.
Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by erkkie on Thursday May 25, 2017 @11:39PM (#14421829)
Curious about your thoughts on evo psych.
Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by rdiddly on Friday May 26, 2017 @05:17PM (#14427254)
I think it explains a lot of things nicely, as a good theoretical framework should. But I'm also a little cautiously skeptical about it, because you're working backwards, without benefit of any real-time experimental data, so it's almost impossible to keep "present-day bias" out of it.
Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by zaptheimpaler on Thursday May 25, 2017 @04:41PM (#14419990)
Have you heard Apeman by The Kinks? I think you would enjoy it! Its the same sentiment in musical form, always really resonated with me because its so true.
Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by im3w1l on Thursday May 25, 2017 @11:47PM (#14421858)
If you have a strong bias towards accomodating, then the rare instances where you choose a different approach are presumably ones where it is strongly called for. It would make sense that you get respect for taking the right course of action.

Someone who is almost always selfish may find they are the most respected when they accomodate.

Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by Doxin on Tuesday May 30, 2017 @06:39AM (#14444265)
I think it's probably related to the fact that, for most people, there's a right amount of selfish and that amount isn't anywhere near 0. People would much rather get a no than a reluctant yes, even if they themselves don't realise this.
Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by lacampbell on Thursday May 25, 2017 @05:25PM (#14420251)
I often seem to find my actions that I judge as selfish or arrogant are the ones that I get respect for.

A lot of timid people are attracted to strong people. You say the things they wish they had the bravery to say, and they respect it. It's aspirational.

Re:Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922) by watwut on Thursday May 25, 2017 @04:38PM (#14419973)
Do you have a concrete example?